Jar's belief statement- Part 2

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Eventually you reach a point of awareness and you will know right from wrong even if no one teaches it to you. Like murder, I could be raised thinking murder was ok, but at some point I might realize that it is not.

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So, is it murder, and therefore sin, to kill the man who rapes your daughter?Is state-sanctioned killing (capital punishment) just indirect revenge murder?

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A few weeks later, my other nieghbor down the block, who is Christian, mentioned that the guy who blew his brains out with a gun, had a spirit of murder. Instantly (post-hoc reasoning ) I realized that evil spirits do exist, and one had visited my head, and tried to trick me into killing myself. Of course there is no way to prove that it was an evil spirit, but there is no way to prove it wasn't either. However, the choice was solely up to me.

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What a terrifying (yet exciting, I'm sure) woo-woo world of monsters and bogeymen you occupy, rat.Couldn't it be that your poor neighbor was simply clinically depressed? Had some bad chemical imbalance in the brain? Isn't that a hell of a lot more likely than a spirit of murder?I swear, to hear about grownups discussing the fairytale monsters of a 5 year old as if they are real is incredibly amusing. Disturbing and baffling, but amusing.The truly sad part about all of this is that if all of you so-called "Christian" neighbors had been paying attention to this guy and if you could have recognized the signs of clinical depression instead of ascribing his behavior to his being posessed by a "spirit", you might have been able to get him some help before it was too late.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Now, from my own point of view, I really don't give a damn if evolution is taught in the schools or not.

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Coming from a so-called college instructor, that is disappointing.

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no.

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How is it not?

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I am saying it was both.

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Woo-woo! The bogeyman made him do it!Doesn't it give you chills? Doesn't it give you the willies?Woo-woo!

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He was like that for a long time, yet it was when I felt what I felt, that he took his life shortly there after. Gave me chills.

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Exactly. It gave you chills. It was thrilling to think you had some special awareness of the woo-woo spirits that made him do it.And if he was like that for a long time, more's the shame on you and that other so-called Christian neighbor of yours for not trying to get the man some help.Would calling social services have been pointless, since what are mental health professionals going to against "spirits of murder"?

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To me his whole life, he was trapped by bad spirits, that could have started with his childhood, or his parents.

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Do you even listen to yourself, rat?The bogeyman and evil spirits are the fears of a child who is afraid of the dark.Clinical depression is an illness. It is caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. There is a genetic component that affects suceptibility.

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Yes, I feel bad about it,

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Maybe you do and maybe you don't.In your initial telling of the story, it was only to illustrate your woo-woo feeling about the poor depressed guy who offed himself and the smug, self-satisfied discussion your "Christian" neighbor and you had about it afterwords.

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but those people were all to themselves, and very difficult to get along with. We try to be friendly with his wife who is now all screwed up.

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The way the world is these days, you can't seem to have healthy relationships as easily with your nieghbors anymore. Instead of typing to me on the internet, maybe you should be on your front porch talking with your nieghbors, and saving all the crazy people from killing themselves, instead of finger pointing at Christians.

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I am not saying that I would have done anything differently beforehand, although it is possible. I have become involved in neighbors' lives in the past.What I am saying is that I find it disgusting and shocking that you are using another person's sucicide to give yourself a woo-woo spooky thrill.I am saying that it is frankly lunatic in this day and age of incredible scientific and medical understanding that grown men will stand around and blame a suicide on evil spirits.

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Maybe the joke is on you. Being convinced that it doesn't exist makes you safe, doesn't it?

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Go live in the fear, superstition and ignorance of the Dark Ages if that's where you feel most comfortable, rat.I'll stay up here in the light.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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No, it wasn't thrilling, your unbelievable.

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You said that you got chills.That is exciting, that is thrilling.

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If I hadn't experienced what I did, then the thought wouldn't have crossed my mind.

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Right. The coincidence gave you the woo-woo thrill.

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Go *f* yourself, for trying to lay some kind of guilt trip on me.

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Hey, I'm not the one casually talking about the poor guy being possessed by evil "spirits of murder" as if there was nothing anybody could do about it.

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He was getting help. It was probably the poor help that contributed to his death. There are legal proceedings concerning that matter.

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Oh, so he WAS getting help? Medical help?Doesn't that make your case for the woo-woo evil spirits a lot weaker?Maybe the doctor who was treating him was posessed by "spirits of malpractice".

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Hvae you ever had social services called on you?
It's not a pleasant experience.

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More unpleasant that killing yourself, rat?

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My whole life, I never believed in spirits, or the bogeyman. I am aware of these things now. There is no way to prove them, and I do not take it as concrete, but I am aware of the possibility of a spiritual world out there. It is this awareness that gives me an advantage in life.

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In other words, I am open minded, of which you have claimed I am not. You have your mind shut, so your safe.

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You are not open minded; you are credulous. You are gullible.

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I found it extremely coinsidental that in my 41 years alive the thought of suicide never even crossed my mind, and the next day after it happens, my nieghbor commits suicide.

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Yup. Big coincidence....so why is this coincidence meaningful?

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Where the thought even came from, or why the feeling I got even came to my mind remains unexplained to me.

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You had a bad day, as you explained. You were feeling down about all of the things that were going badly in your life. That happens to everybody at some time or another, pretty much.

Or, your wife or somebody had it removed and isn't letting on just so they can mess with your brain.

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no.

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Yes.Your point was that you are open-minded, and I am, by contrast I suppose, closed-minded, because you consider the existence of spirits as a real possibility, and quite likely had an active role in this particular case.You admitted to having no evidence to support such a claim.Being open-minded is to be open to ideas and explanations of all kinds.It does not require one to give all ideas equal weight.For example, it could be suggested that this man's engrams were all out of whack, or possibly his chakras, or his yin/yang balance, or perhaps he was being visited by aliens who put implants in his brain and they were talking to him and told him to kill himself.Am I to consider you closed-minded if you do not seriously consider that any or all of these explanations are equally likely?You must understand that to me, your perfectly serious mention of a "spirit of murder" possibly being involved is exactly the same as someone seriously mentioning the possibility of alien visitation, implants, etc., being involved.I see all of these as quite equally with my open mind. Do you?

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It wasn't the thought of commiting suicide to solve my over inflated problems (in my own head) that scared me, it was the vision associated with it that freaked me out. Sorry, I do not believe this originated in my own mind.

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Why couldn't it have?

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It lasted about 1-2 seconds, and I have nver even thought of anything remotely close to what I saw, and felt.

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So?Why does that preclude it being produced in your own mind?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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You and I are opposites concerning the woo-woo phenomenon.

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Oh, no.I agree that the penomena of feeling a woo-woo sensation, is very exciting and common.We just disagree on where it comes from.

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Can we conclude that there are no legitamete mysteries in life that science cannot explain?

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No, I am sure that there are many mysteries that science will never be able to explain.Science is a human endeavor, and as such is hampered by the limits on our own intellect, creativity, etc.But "unexplained" does not equal "supernatural".

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To you, it is a challenge, for it verifies your own self control.

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I need self control as well, yet always await a parental figure (such as God) to step in and help me. Perhaps many charismatic Christians are immature.

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Well, you said it, not me. I would suggest that you have constructed the parental figure inside of yourself, and that you are the one helping you.

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Are you open minded to life on other planets?

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Sure.I am open to the idea.

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What I don't understand is you mocking me for thinking what I do, after experienceing what I did.

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Don't you?You have to understand, rat, that you appear to me to construct all sorts of supernatural and fantastic explanations for utterly mundane life events. You appear to me to be able to very, very easily freak yourself out; to give yourself the willies, as it were.You seem to me to live in a very superstitious, medieval Dark Ages world where succubi visit you at night and demons and evil spirits are likely to be involved in every bad thing that ever happens.In my world, only children are this preoccupied with superstition and fantasies of this nature.In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.

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Those other explanations are not on equal terms with what I believe, as they have nothing to do with what I felt,

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Of course they are on equal terms with what you believe.They are all just beliefs, just as your belief is just a belief.There are many people who believe just as strongly, and even more strongly than you do, in the absolute truth of those other explanations.If you were actually "open-minded" as you claim you are, you wouldn't disregard all of those other explanations out of hand. You would consider ALL of them as being potentially true, just like I do.

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and are no more credible than Santa Claus to me.

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See, you are very closed-minded.

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I am not basing this on purely speculation, there is strong subjective evidence supporting how I feel. But because it is subjective, I remain open to all explanations.

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But you have already said that you disregard any explanation but the one you preferr according to your preexisting beliefs, which means that you are not open to all explanations in the least!

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It wasn't the thought of commiting suicide to solve my over inflated problems (in my own head) that scared me, it was the vision associated with it that freaked me out. Sorry, I do not believe this originated in my own mind.

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It could have, but it is highly unlikely. I am not going to go into detail why.

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How convenient.

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It was more than just a thought. It was a complete experience, that I do not believe my mind is capable of producing.

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What do you mean by "complete experience"?Why is your brain not able to produce it?

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Off topic: Schraf, have I ever told you how hot I think smart women are?

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Hmmmm, maybe, but I'm not sure.I have such a bad memory, I need to be told things over and over before I remember them.

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On topic: Is that a sin?

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To quote one of my favorite men of God, Reverend Lovejoy, regarding the Bible and sin:"...just about everything is a sin. Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically, we're not allowed to go to the bathroom."Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

XXXOOOAnd I don't think Ian actually loves me, for my outward appearance or otherwise.I think he is confused by me.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : spelling!

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I rest my case.

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What case?

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#1, there was nothing mundane about what I experienced.

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...according to you. Since you are not forthcoming about what you experienced, I have no idea if it is mundane or not.

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#2 There is no "all sorts of supernatural events" Just possibilities.

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Now you are equivocating. You have stated that you believe that all sorts of supernatuural events have happened, and that "spirits" exist.

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I am actually a very realistic person, and very hard to convince of anything supernatural.

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LOL! "Difficult" compared to whom?

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Thats probably how you look at most religious people.

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No, that's what you seem like to me, which is exactly what I wrote. What I wrote is what I meant. Granted, I indulged in hyperbole a bit. But only a bit.

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Nice try, but not me.

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Look, you're the one who says he has visions from God. You're the one who says that evil spirits exist.I am sorry, but that is pretty extreme among all of the religious people I've ever known.

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I wouldn't be so quick to speak for "rational adults" as you may not even know what that term means.

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I know exactly what it means.It means "having the ability to reason".

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If God exists, then you are the irrational one.

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What does the existence of God have to do with thinking rationally?Are you trying to say that if God exists, evil spirits must therefore exist?Like I said.In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.

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No, I am smart.

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The two conditions are not mutually exclusive.Besides, the opposite of "closed-minded" is "open-minded"

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My brain did not produce someone elses suicide.

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What are you talking about?You said:

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It wasn't the thought of commiting suicide to solve my over inflated problems (in my own head) that scared me, it was the vision associated with it that freaked me out. Sorry, I do not believe this originated in my own mind.

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I asked why it was impossible that this vision which freaked you out couldn't have originated in your own mind.

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It may have produced a connection between what I felt, and what he went through, but if you break anything down far enough that is subjective, you can always explain it away, sweet dreams.

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Yeah, so you claim.Tell me, though.Which is more probable;1) You experienced a microsleep or a sleep- or meditative-like, state while you were lying on your bed, ruminating about all the bad things in your life, and you had a little bit of a nightmare that startled you, or2) You just let your thoughts wander and you let your fears and imagination get the better of you and you freaked yourself out, or3) You had a little flashback brain fart from your drug and drink days, or4) That you had some kind of momentary supernaturally-caused psychic/religious evil spirit connection with this man who later killed himself?We know that many, many people's brains produce strange experiences, and we can even reproduce them artificially.I ask again.Why is it impossible that your brain and emotional state could have produced your scary vision? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson