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Author | Topic: Jar's belief statement- Part 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, is it murder, and therefore sin, to kill the man who rapes your daughter? Is state-sanctioned killing (capital punishment) just indirect revenge murder?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What a terrifying (yet exciting, I'm sure) woo-woo world of monsters and bogeymen you occupy, rat. Couldn't it be that your poor neighbor was simply clinically depressed? Had some bad chemical imbalance in the brain? Isn't that a hell of a lot more likely than a spirit of murder? I swear, to hear about grownups discussing the fairytale monsters of a 5 year old as if they are real is incredibly amusing. Disturbing and baffling, but amusing. The truly sad part about all of this is that if all of you so-called "Christian" neighbors had been paying attention to this guy and if you could have recognized the signs of clinical depression instead of ascribing his behavior to his being posessed by a "spirit", you might have been able to get him some help before it was too late. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Coming from a so-called college instructor, that is disappointing.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Is state-sanctioned killing (capital punishment) just indirect revenge murder? quote: How is it not?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Couldn't it be that your poor neighbor was simply clinically depressed? Had some bad chemical imbalance in the brain? Isn't that a hell of a lot more likely than a spirit of murder? quote: Woo-woo! The bogeyman made him do it! Doesn't it give you chills? Doesn't it give you the willies? Woo-woo!
quote: Exactly. It gave you chills. It was thrilling to think you had some special awareness of the woo-woo spirits that made him do it. And if he was like that for a long time, more's the shame on you and that other so-called Christian neighbor of yours for not trying to get the man some help. Would calling social services have been pointless, since what are mental health professionals going to against "spirits of murder"?
quote: Do you even listen to yourself, rat? The bogeyman and evil spirits are the fears of a child who is afraid of the dark. Clinical depression is an illness. It is caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. There is a genetic component that affects suceptibility.
The truly sad part about all of this is that if all of you so-called "Christian" neighbors had been paying attention to this guy and if you could have recognized the signs of clinical depression instead of ascribing his behavior to his being posessed by a "spirit", you might have been able to get him some help before it was too late. quote: Maybe you do and maybe you don't. In your initial telling of the story, it was only to illustrate your woo-woo feeling about the poor depressed guy who offed himself and the smug, self-satisfied discussion your "Christian" neighbor and you had about it afterwords.
quote: I am not saying that I would have done anything differently beforehand, although it is possible. I have become involved in neighbors' lives in the past. What I am saying is that I find it disgusting and shocking that you are using another person's sucicide to give yourself a woo-woo spooky thrill. I am saying that it is frankly lunatic in this day and age of incredible scientific and medical understanding that grown men will stand around and blame a suicide on evil spirits.
I swear, to hear about grownups discussing the fairytale monsters of a 5 year old as if they are real is incredibly amusing. Disturbing and baffling, but amusing. quote: Go live in the fear, superstition and ignorance of the Dark Ages if that's where you feel most comfortable, rat. I'll stay up here in the light. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: You said that you got chills. That is exciting, that is thrilling.
quote: Right. The coincidence gave you the woo-woo thrill.
quote: Hey, I'm not the one casually talking about the poor guy being possessed by evil "spirits of murder" as if there was nothing anybody could do about it.
quote: Oh, so he WAS getting help? Medical help? Doesn't that make your case for the woo-woo evil spirits a lot weaker? Maybe the doctor who was treating him was posessed by "spirits of malpractice".
quote: More unpleasant that killing yourself, rat?
quote: You are not open minded; you are credulous. You are gullible.
quote: Yup. Big coincidence. ...so why is this coincidence meaningful?
quote: You had a bad day, as you explained. You were feeling down about all of the things that were going badly in your life. That happens to everybody at some time or another, pretty much.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Or, your wife or somebody had it removed and isn't letting on just so they can mess with your brain.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
You are not open minded; you are credulous. You are gullible. quote: Yes. Your point was that you are open-minded, and I am, by contrast I suppose, closed-minded, because you consider the existence of spirits as a real possibility, and quite likely had an active role in this particular case. You admitted to having no evidence to support such a claim. Being open-minded is to be open to ideas and explanations of all kinds. It does not require one to give all ideas equal weight. For example, it could be suggested that this man's engrams were all out of whack, or possibly his chakras, or his yin/yang balance, or perhaps he was being visited by aliens who put implants in his brain and they were talking to him and told him to kill himself. Am I to consider you closed-minded if you do not seriously consider that any or all of these explanations are equally likely? You must understand that to me, your perfectly serious mention of a "spirit of murder" possibly being involved is exactly the same as someone seriously mentioning the possibility of alien visitation, implants, etc., being involved. I see all of these as quite equally with my open mind. Do you?
You had a bad day, as you explained. You were feeling down about all of the things that were going badly in your life. That happens to everybody at some time or another, pretty much. quote: Why couldn't it have?
quote: So? Why does that preclude it being produced in your own mind? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Oh, no. I agree that the penomena of feeling a woo-woo sensation, is very exciting and common. We just disagree on where it comes from.
quote: No, I am sure that there are many mysteries that science will never be able to explain. Science is a human endeavor, and as such is hampered by the limits on our own intellect, creativity, etc. But "unexplained" does not equal "supernatural".
quote: Well, you said it, not me. I would suggest that you have constructed the parental figure inside of yourself, and that you are the one helping you.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure. I am open to the idea.
quote: Don't you? You have to understand, rat, that you appear to me to construct all sorts of supernatural and fantastic explanations for utterly mundane life events. You appear to me to be able to very, very easily freak yourself out; to give yourself the willies, as it were. You seem to me to live in a very superstitious, medieval Dark Ages world where succubi visit you at night and demons and evil spirits are likely to be involved in every bad thing that ever happens. In my world, only children are this preoccupied with superstition and fantasies of this nature. In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.
quote: Of course they are on equal terms with what you believe. They are all just beliefs, just as your belief is just a belief. There are many people who believe just as strongly, and even more strongly than you do, in the absolute truth of those other explanations. If you were actually "open-minded" as you claim you are, you wouldn't disregard all of those other explanations out of hand. You would consider ALL of them as being potentially true, just like I do.
quote: See, you are very closed-minded.
quote: But you have already said that you disregard any explanation but the one you preferr according to your preexisting beliefs, which means that you are not open to all explanations in the least!
quote: Why couldn't it have? quote: How convenient.
quote: What do you mean by "complete experience"? Why is your brain not able to produce it?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Hmmmm, maybe, but I'm not sure. I have such a bad memory, I need to be told things over and over before I remember them.
quote: To quote one of my favorite men of God, Reverend Lovejoy, regarding the Bible and sin: "...just about everything is a sin. Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically, we're not allowed to go to the bathroom." Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
XXXOOO
And I don't think Ian actually loves me, for my outward appearance or otherwise. I think he is confused by me. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. Edited by schrafinator, : spelling!
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: What case?
quote: ...according to you. Since you are not forthcoming about what you experienced, I have no idea if it is mundane or not.
quote: Now you are equivocating. You have stated that you believe that all sorts of supernatuural events have happened, and that "spirits" exist.
quote: LOL! "Difficult" compared to whom?
You seem to me to live in a very superstitious, medieval Dark Ages world where succubi visit you at night and demons and evil spirits are likely to be involved in every bad thing that ever happens. quote: No, that's what you seem like to me, which is exactly what I wrote. What I wrote is what I meant. Granted, I indulged in hyperbole a bit. But only a bit.
quote: Look, you're the one who says he has visions from God. You're the one who says that evil spirits exist. I am sorry, but that is pretty extreme among all of the religious people I've ever known.
In my world, rational adults do not think in this way. quote: I know exactly what it means. It means "having the ability to reason".
quote: What does the existence of God have to do with thinking rationally? Are you trying to say that if God exists, evil spirits must therefore exist? Like I said. In my world, rational adults do not think in this way.
See, you are very closed-minded. quote: The two conditions are not mutually exclusive. Besides, the opposite of "closed-minded" is "open-minded"
What do you mean by "complete experience"? Why is your brain not able to produce it? quote: What are you talking about? You said:
quote: I asked why it was impossible that this vision which freaked you out couldn't have originated in your own mind.
quote: Yeah, so you claim. Tell me, though. Which is more probable; 1) You experienced a microsleep or a sleep- or meditative-like, state while you were lying on your bed, ruminating about all the bad things in your life, and you had a little bit of a nightmare that startled you, or 2) You just let your thoughts wander and you let your fears and imagination get the better of you and you freaked yourself out, or 3) You had a little flashback brain fart from your drug and drink days, or 4) That you had some kind of momentary supernaturally-caused psychic/religious evil spirit connection with this man who later killed himself? We know that many, many people's brains produce strange experiences, and we can even reproduce them artificially. I ask again. Why is it impossible that your brain and emotional state could have produced your scary vision? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given. "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!" - Ned Flanders "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
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