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Author | Topic: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage | |||||||||||||||||||
IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4466 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
*reads post*
AAAAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAAAH *several minutes later, when the Rock Hound finally recovers* Now, on to actual point by point debate.
quote: See, we have this thing called HRT now, which means that menopause isn't the pain-in-the-ass it used to me. Anyway, by this reckoning men with manic depression should submit as well, because they're obviously as unstable, if not more so.
quote: Imagine trying to debate with a man high on testosterone - how often has that worked... Bar fights across the world, Golfer - they ain't started by women.
quote: So... because a man is more aggressive he's obviously more qualified to be a leader? (This had me on the floor by the way.) Where oh where do you get your definition of leadership?? Jesus was a leader, and a damn good one - and is known for being loving, gentle, forgiving... wow, all the qualities NOT associated with men on testosterone! Who else... Mahatma Gandhi, who inspired people with his courage and wisdom - was obviously qualified to be the leader of his people because he was male and aggressive. Closer to home - Mary Robinson, former President of Ireland, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights - obviously not qualified to be a leader because she's not male and agressive.
quote: So... as long as the man is in control, there's no reason the woman shouldn't share in the family decisions. She won't be making them, but hey, she can "share" in them! Do you see how dumb this looks? If the wife is sharing in the decisions, having her input influence them, then the man isn't the head - it's a partnership between equals because the decisions are made by them both. Your bible doesn't ask that women be subservient. Jesus certainly didn't ask. I'm prepared to bet hard cash that the reason fundie divorce rates are higher than non-fundies is this half-assed notion that women are somehow lesser beings and need the guiding hand of a man - and let's face it, that's what it boils down to no matter what way you want to spin it. My $0.02 (and FYI, I would never want to be in that kind of relationship.) {edited to fix my appalling grammar} This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-10-2006 11:25 AM "Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."
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IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4466 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
quote: Whoa there Trigger, I'm not disputing that in some places the Christian churches are OK with women. And Jesus lived in a patriarchal society, so expecting him to be completely oblivious to it is a bit much. What I'm disputing is the whole marraige schtick today where they say that women must bow down to men, when your holy book and indeed your messiah are oddly silent on the subject.
quote: Golfer, I don't care if your church thinks that women are equal members of the family of god or whatever. That's a faith thing. We're talking about something practical here, i.e. a marraige - where your church says that women are NOT equal.
quote: Must... resist... urge... to snigger... Eh, this has been refuted, better leave it alone.
quote: What you're saying here is that the wife and children need, in essence, the guiding hand of the husband. How utterly demeaning and arrogant... I note that you sure as hell don't say WHY, just that the alternative is somehow "not natural". Hurray for unsupported assertations!
quote: So... when a guy gets hormonal and feels like hitting things, he "learns how to control these issues". When a woman gets hormonal, she needs to be controlled. Great double standard there.
{Fixed a quote box. - AM} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-14-2006 01:42 PM "Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."
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IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4466 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
quote: ...I cannot believe that you just said that. Men are just as likely to be dumb when it comes to politics, maybe more so - on account of all that testosterone messing up their heads. Obviously they can't make good decisions on who to vote for because they're so aggressive and reckless, right? Hey if we're going for sweeping generalisations, let's go crazy!
quote: Hmm, let's ponder this statement. Stronger physically? Not a chance, women tend to be tougher - as far as I know, it's because a woman's body has to handle the trauma of childbirth. Stronger psychologically? Again, as far as I know, women have far better coping mechanisms than men. Know what demographic group has the highest rates of suicide in Ireland? Men aged 18 - 25. Stronger spiritually? Well, we're not arguing over this point. So I don't know where you're getting this idea of men being "stronger". Maybe you're using a system of rating I'm not familiar with.
quote:quote: Excuse me? Since when do you speak for one half of the human race? You mean to tell us that ALL women continually ask for directions from their husbands? What are you basing that on, other than your own vague ideas?
quote: I'm assuming you're saying this because you suddenly have some mystical insight into another person's thoughts and feelings even though you've never met and, in fact, you know nothing about their life and situation.
quote: So, a wife is disrespectful if she decides to do something for herself. And if a husband does it... I detect a double standard here again.
quote: ...Because a business, with a lot of different people fulfilling specific roles for a short time and they can leave whenever they like, is the same as a single contract between two people who can have any number of different roles and that is supposed to be for life. I also have to note that in a business gender doesn't determine who is most capable of leading. Here's a personal anecdote - I work for Apple, and the top management of the entire European division is nearly exclusively women.
quote: I'm confused. How exactly does playing computer games determine how good anyone is at making decisions? Is this your crazy moon-logic again?
quote: Oh get over it. All you're doing at this stage is tossing out the same daft assertations that were refuted several posts ago. Women don't need men to be anything. They don't need to be controlled, don't need guidance, don't need to follow-the-leader - they might need a little understanding but hey, the same can be said of men. Women are human beings in their own right, not space aliens or animals! {edited to fix major format problems} This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-12-2006 01:03 PM "Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."
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IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4466 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
*falls over laughing*
Man oh man oh man, you couldn't make this stuff up! Ok, on to the point by point discussion...
quote: You keep parroting on about this "stronger vessel" thing - and unless I've been hallucinating, I think I discussed this is my previous post. How's about you address the concerns I raised there?
quote: If you can't lay off the snide remarks in a debate, you're not worth debating with. Brennakimi's been suspended for a personal attack. I'd suspend you for the same thing, if I was acting in admin mode in this thread.
quote: Since when does a mature adult need to be lead around like a child by another mature adult? Since when does ANY marraige need one partner to be lead by the other?
quote: What if the husband is out of work and the wife is supporting him? Wouldn't that make her the greater vessel? What if both are working, or neither? Assuming that there is only one version of a happy family is totally naive. So women have nothing to complain about because they have modern technology helping them to be unpaid maids? No possible issues with their self-esteem, and worth as a human being, that arise from knowing that they can't overrule their husband's decisions?
quote: Bullshit. Two mature adults should be capable of compromise, not of one having to submit to the other when they can't agree. All that shows to kids is that wifes are supposed to be powerless sub-humans - and you better believe that treating anyone as any less than an equal is treating them as sub-human.
quote: ...Are you aware that there are marraiges without children? That some women are not effeminate or "softies"? That, in fact, this is an archaeic stereotype of a family that is largely useless in the modern world? That you seem to be seeing every marraige in black and white terms when most are NOT THAT SIMPLE? I like iano's response better, at least he's honest that you're only following your god's orders. Oh and by the way, I've posted twice before to you and gotten ignored. "Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."
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IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4466 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
The Golfer's been suspended, so I suppose this is largely irrelevent, but hey...
quote: ...Which has nothing to do with what I asked, to whit: Since when does a mature adult need to be lead around like a child by another mature adult? What does selfishness have to do with being respected as a person in your own right?
quote: What the hell makes you think that ANY man has a right to get sex from a woman, even if she's his wife? Wives have sex with their husbands because they love them and want them to be happy, and they enjoy it too. Anything else is a veiled form of prostitution or at worst marital rape, as far as I'm concerned, and thinking of it turns my stomach. Let's make this clear - HER body. HER choice. NOT his. The reverse is true as well.
quote: So what? Did your friend never consider, in all those three years, that maybe there was something seriously wrong with his marraige if his wife was doing this? For future reference, my idea of a perfect marraige has only one criterion - that both partners are happy, end of story. So don't go getting half-assed notions of what I think when you know nothing about me.
quote: Don't care. This is about the practical applications of what your god said, not what he did or didn't say. As far as I'm concerned your god is a jackass and a lunatic, so don't bother preaching at me about him.
quote: AAAAAhahhaahahaha - because sit-coms are a perfect representation of reality? Give me a break.
quote: Bullshit. Again, since when do you speak for everyone in the modern world? Who are you to call them spoiled children? I didn't suggest that, so you're not agreeing with anything but your own idiot notions, Golfer. There are people with messed up marraiges who are Christian, and who are not. There are people with great marraiges who are Christian and who are not. The notion of sharing and respect is not alien to those who have great marraiges, regardless of whether they believe in the Christian god or Osiris or Thor or whatever. iano is right, and at least he's honest - a fundy Christian marraige isn't based on what's best for the husband and wife, it's based on the ancient writings of a book 2000 years old which is supposedly what your god wants. Even what he wants is something that just isn't good for the marraige. {edited to fix quote box} This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-14-2006 02:23 PM "Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."
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