Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

I believe the bible teaches us that it is a voluntary submission of the wife to the authority of the husband. I don’t know of any verse that says a husband should bring his wife into submission if she does not voluntarily submit.We automatically think that submission of the wife to the husband somehow makes the wife less than her husband. I disagree. I think rather it is a matter of position than worthiness. When I was in the Army I had friends who out ranked me, and at work I was under their authority, but I would not say there were superior to me.Remember Jesus submitted to the authority of his Father, but he was not less important than him.

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Jason B

Tell me, do you think that we should follow what the Bible directs regarding how to treat disobedient children (stoning)

You are referring to the following:Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (ESV)
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.The simple answer is that even today it is a sin for a son to rebel against his parents, but the punishment for that sin is no longer death. Why, because Jesus came and took the punishment of sin for us.On a side note, while reading this passage to prepare my response, I couldn’t help be marveled at the unity of the Bible. Here we have an example, way back in Deuteronomy of a father (God) being commanded to sacrifice his son (Jesus) in order to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.And in a further testament of the Bibles unity, in the very next section, Deuteronomy 21:22-23 it talks about a man hung on a tree is cursed.Paul says in Galatians 3:13-14
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for usfor it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.So here in the shadows of Deuteronomy 21 we have a an example of things yet to come.

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Jason B

He did NOT, apparently, come and take the punishment of sin for us in the case of Eve, and therefore all women, forever, must be ruled over by men.

I think absolutely the Genesis verse about men ruling over women has been trumped by Christ’s sacrifice, but I don’t think the New Testament’s call for wives to submit to their husbands is a punishment for sin, nor do I think it means a wife is less than her husband in any way. It’s a matter of position not importance.I personally have never known any Christian wife who is in complete biblical submission to her husband, has anyone? But the call for this is still in the Bible. So we have to ask, why? What is it there fore? What application does it have to our lives today? Is it addressing a single person, a single church, or all of Christendom? But I don’t think we should just dismiss it simply because it is not politically correct, or it’s hard to understand or live up to. Should we dismiss the call for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church because it’s really hard to do?

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Jason B

it is humiliating and spirit-destroying.

You obviously take submission to mean a total surrender of will and I just don’t think the Bible and most churches teach that.Biblical submission works for many couples and many wives do not feel humiliated nor have their spirits destroyed in the process. Would you deny this?I will admit that it is occasionally abused and misrepresented by churches and husbands, but so are many biblical teachings.If you are having trouble with this issue, then put it aside and move on to other topics. I wouldn't let it become a stumbling block for you.

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Jason B

So what? Domination and submission sexuality works for many couples too. At least there is it not mandated.

The Bible is only mandated for Christians NosyNed. And I have a feeling that a group that required Sexual Domination would have a higher membership than many churches and many of the people arguing against Biblical submission would have no problem with that group. IMO

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Jason B

You make many good points and I agree with most but:

It would be very detrimental for women to truly be in a submissive relationship.

All wives in all cases? What if the husband was living up to his end of the bargain, loving his wife as Christ loved the church?I have two questions and maybe these should be new topics. Is a wives attitude toward her husband, especially in the area of submission, indicative of her attitude toward God? And conversely, is a husband’s attitude toward his wife, especially in the area of unconditional love, indicative of his attitude toward God?

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Jason B

Maybe this is another topic also, but how did Christ love the church? What are the characteristics of Christ's love for the church that a husband should show towards his wife?/tr>

The Greek word for love Paul uses here is "Agape" which means primarily good will toward others. It is deep, tender, and warm concern for the happiness and well-being of another; it is charity toward those who are in need. Agape is different from other kinds of love in that it seeks to give and not to get. It seeks to satisfy not some need of the lover, but rather the need of the one who is loved.Some examples of how Christ loved the church:"He gave himself for her" --- Agape love is "selfless." The bride of Christ needed a Savior, and Christ gave himself for his bride, the church. Agape love fulfills needs."He set her apart" --- the word "sanctify" means "to set apart for a special purpose." The bride of Christ, the church, is chosen by God to love, sanctify and cleanse."He presented her glorious" --- the word "glorious" is the Greek word "endoxa" which means "to hold in honor.The greek word Paul uses for submit is hupotasso which is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden.Ephesians 5:31 says
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.So Paul summarizes by simply saying wives respect your husbands, and I think this is the true spirit of the passages.

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Jason B

I will try and get back to you today purpledawn, but It may be this weekend before I post a response. Sorry.

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Jason B

You too Schrafinator, I will try to respond by this weekend. If I can find some free time.

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Jason B

I thought he died for the sins of mankind.

There is a Christ-Church, Husband-Wife analogy going on here. Basically Paul is saying the meaning of human marriage is based on another greater marriage designed by God in heaven before creation, namely, the marriage of Christ to the church.If you would like to read more on it try this link:
404 Error - Page Not Found | Desiring God Paul is also relying on the imagery of the Jewish marital law of the time. In that day the groom would meet with the bride to be’s father and negotiate a price. If the offer was accepted then the bride and groom came together and drank a benediction, becoming married in spirit. The groom would then go away and prepare a place for the bride, before finally coming back to claim his bride in a glorious ceremony.

Besides, how selfless is it to give up your life if you know you are going to be raised up? For those who believe that Jesus is God, then he didn't give up anything since God is immortal.

You will have to make up your own mind about that. To me it was an awesome sacrifice.I read the article and appreciate you pointing it out; it was a very good article.I agree with most of the things she says, but not all of her conclusions. But she is entitled to make those conclusions, but remember they are just her interpretations of scripture, she, nor I, nor the Pope, is the final authority on the Bible.St. Augustine had a great quote, He said In essential things, unity. In non-essential things liberty. And in all things Love. And I do no think Biblical submission is an essential tenant of our faith.I really like what Rebecca Merrill Groothuis says here:
In the NT, slaves are told to obey their masters and children their parents, but wives are not told to obey their husbands; rather, they are told to submit to their husbands. In Ephesians 5:21-33, the most extended NT passage on the marriage relationship, the wife's submission is presented as one aspect of the mutual submission that should exist between all believers in Christ. We tend to assume that when the Bible says, "wives, submit," it necessarily means submit to authority; yet in the Ephesians passage authority is not the issue, but rather self-sacrificing love and mutual respect. Here husbands and wives are told to let their relationship imitate the relationship of Christ and the church in the sense that the church submits to the life-giving, self-sacrificing love of Christ for the church.I could not have said it better myself.There is really not much more that can be said by us on this topic. I suggest we move on to other topics.

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Jason B

Well, no, I actually do not take the submission of the wife to her husband to be a total surrender of will.

Neither Do I.

I take it to mean that her ideas and wants and thoughts and desires ultimately are less important in a marriage where the husband is the leader.

OK.

An adult person doesn't need to be "led" by another adult in a marriage. Leading is what you do for children, soldiers, and employees, not spouses.

Got It.

If a man feels the need to be "in charge" of his wife and the marriage, then he is in a relationship with a person he considers less than fully adult.

Have to disagree with you here. If I am in charge of people at work (and I am not a pre-school teacher) then I would assume I am in charge of adults. In fact I would require it.

Do you have a best friend? Which one of you "leads" the other?

My wife is my best friend. And we give liberty to each other in all areas, respect each others strengths and weaknesses, and ration responsibilities based on who is best equipped to fulfill those responsibilities.

Well, it is a fact that Fundamentalist Christians have the highest divorce rate among all religious and non-religious groups in the US.

I read the article and I concede Christians have a higher divorce rate but I cannot be expected to defend the actions of all Christians, nor could you defend the actions of all atheists. I can say that you cannot make the assumption that it is Biblical submission that is the cause of the high divorce rate.

I'm sorry, but the advocacy of anything other than an equal partnership between adults in marriage constitutes a demeaning, partiarchal attitude towards women in marriage.

You have made that point already.I think I am no longer being asked to defend my own positions here, but positions that I do not hold. I will restate what I said earlier, you can easily switch submit and respect in Ephesians 5:22, and It would mean the same thing.I don’t think there is anymore you and I can say on this to each other, I suggest moving on.

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Jason B