Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

Schraf: I guess you won't be there either, buz, because you believe in the oppression of women and you hate muslims.Buz: LIAR!Shraf: I don't think so.Maybe you would like to finally respond to this thread regarding your views on women that I strated months and months ago:http://EvC Forum: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage -->EvC Forum: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

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counterpart post: Women are clearly mans "property" according to the bible, and belong to husbands and fathers. If I was a woman, I would take offense to this, and this fact alone would make me wary of proclaiming the bible as "perfect", etc...buz response: It works like this with the Bible:
1. There are numerous texts throughout the NT which admonish the husbands to love their wives as they love themselves. There are, in the Greek, four words for the word love. This love of the man for the woman is the very highest love, the agape love, the same love that motivated Jesus to be obedient to the Father unto the death of the cross for the salvation of the lost world as the sacrificial lamb of God. it is to be an unconditional love, regardless of whether the wife remained healthy, obedient, kind, or even sane.2. If the husband exercised this high love for the wife, there will be no abuse, no taking advantage, no selfishness and no cruelty.3. There is no need for a woman to fear submission to this kind of a husband.4. The NT also teaches that if a man wishes to have his prayers answered he'd better treat his wife right and love her.5. There is good reason for this chain of command given in the Bible. No social unit, including the family can function smoothly having two presiding heads, i.e. two presidents. The total chain of command given in the NT is God the father, head of Christ, Christ head of the man and man the head of the woman.6. This setup does not work where either the man or the woman do not observe the Biblical rules. Imo, that's why Muslims are often known to treat their wives unkindly, the prophet Mohammed, husband of 16 of them, no exception who even bedded his youngest at around age 9. The Quran, unlike the NT, allows for harsh treatment of wives. Asgara may get on my case for saying it, but it's the truth. Some of the pagan cultures also were brutal to their wives.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message is a reply to:
Message 1 by Atos, posted 04-16-2004 12:40 PM--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Replies to this message:
Message 17 by schrafinator, posted 04-17-2004 07:13 PM

God made Eve from Adam's rib. To be a helpmate, not a slave, from him, to him. He didn't take the rib from Adam's foot to be under his foot, he didn't take the rib from Adam's head, to be over his head. He took the rib from Adam's side, signifying exactly that self-same equality. Anyone who say other is a maroon.

If you would take the time to read the Muslim version you'd find that the woman did not get decieved first.

Clearly, by Buz's reasoning, the Atkins diet is contrary to God's will!

I believe the bible teaches us that it is a voluntary submission of the wife to the authority of the husband. I don’t know of any verse that says a husband should bring his wife into submission if she does not voluntarily submit.
We automatically think that submission of the wife to the husband somehow makes the wife less than her husband. I disagree. I think rather it is a matter of position than worthiness. When I was in the Army I had friends who out ranked me, and at work I was under their authority, but I would not say there were superior to me.Remember Jesus submitted to the authority of his Father, but he was not less important than him.

Buz, the account in the Koran is just yet another version of Genesis.

The woman was tempted and yielded to the temptation, the man sinned deliberately, making it iniquity.

Unless you read Genesis one where they are made at the same time and there is no mention of her being made as a helpmate.

This is God's punishment for Eve.
God didn't say this punishment continued for all women. In reading the OT, God seems to be very precise when he wishes curses or punishments to continue through the generations.Why does Christianity feel this applies to all women?

Please show me all the scripture where God decrees that a husband has authority over his wife/wives.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24Genesis 2:18 And Jehovah God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in God.1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of Elohim be not blasphemed.5 I Peter 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him master: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Not obvious! Taking the Bible at face value, the serpent and the ground were cursed.
Adam and Eve were not cursed.

Abel kept the flocks and Cain worked the soil.So Abel didn't work the ground.

Genesis 9:24-25
When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him. So he said, "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brothers."Noah cursed Canaan, not God and Canaan didn't even do anything.
Are the descendants of Canaan servants today?

Genesis 11:6
The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.
11:7
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."
11:8
So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city.This one is even more interesting. It has been a while since I read this story. But no curse spoken here. God didn't say they did anything wrong, he just didn't like mankind working together to build the first skyscraper.

Has God forgotten the sins, but not the punishments?

Just curious, because you never answered me before - do you believe that, by the same logic, this passage precludes the use of anesthesia during labor in an effort to ameliorate the "sorrow" of childbirth? (Or the use of anti-depressants to combat postpartum depression?) Is it against God's will for me to buy bread in the grocery store instead of toiling in the field to grow wheat? (I do have a job, but "toiling in the field" would be potentially the least accurate description possible of what I do.)

If not, then isn't the reasonable and consistent interpretation of this passage not that it's God's plan for men to rule women, but that men will have a natural and degeneritive tendancy to try to rule women, which constitutes the curse? (Much as we don't have to put up with toiling in the soil for bread when we can buy it at the store?)I'd say there's a big difference between a curse that says "men will rule over you" and one that says "you will submit to men."

Buzsaw, do you believe that having a leader/follower type marriage leads to the "follower" being reduced to engaging in childlike behavior, such as begging for money?

You are actively promoting the idea that men should RULE OVER WOMEN....and thus, you support the oppression of women, buz.