Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.

Now you're reminding me of Dan Carroll. WHich spy are you? Rei, or Dan?

And I suppose you would like a yes or no answer?Guess what?You can't get one.While many would like for life and the world to be simple, unfortunately, it is not. You ask... It depends on the circumstances.Person A is literally killing Person B because...A is defending his life from attack?A is defending someone else who was being threatened by B?Life is simply not neat. Morality is simply not true or false. Absolutes aren't.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Soooo the purpose of this exercise was what again? To show how subjective morality can be? I concur with that. And that is why I think morality is a load of crap.I was trying to argue consistency: if you hold a moral position (don't kill) you should apply it in all circumstances possible and not suspend it when the whim suits - like the excuse for most wars.

Remind me to say, "Good and evil exist, yet Morals are relative" next time I'm kicking your balls. Every human knows the difference between good and evil, sometimes it gets confusing, but even murderers know they are wrong, or they wouldn't run from the cops.Just to tell you though, I too am against rape and murder, and think their source is evil.Why've you taken the topic though? Do you know how hard it is to get Schraff back when a topic runs away? This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-18-2004 02:32 PM

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Handdawg is young. He might have said the bad things are to teach us something. That's too simplistic though.

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I agree. That's why I asked the questions I did of him. It seems that he doesn't see things our way, however, and seems to be holding tight to his original claim.

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In some cases, bad things may well teach us something, but the God of the bible has made it clear that basically, - evil is what satan is about, and Good is what God is about. I'm sure you would have read the NT, and will see my point.

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Well, except that if God is all-powerful, he's about evil, too.

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What about if I also know that I can raise my brother from the dead?

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Well, OK, but how is this relevant?

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By your logic, my mother is responsible if I get murdered or die, because she knew I would die one day, yes?

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No, because your mother isn't all-powerful and all-knowing, so she most likely had no power to know what would happen, nor to stop it.

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Not to step on Hangdawg's toes here, but what? Is he your prophet?
The nature of God and what he can do is in the bible, and you know that Schraffy.

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I'm having a conversation with a person who has a particular interpretation of the Bible. I'm simply exploring the moral and theological and logical implications of his interpretation as he has stated them. That's the fun.

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Didn't I say that his will be done? If the girl resides in paradise from henceforth forever, then what was God's will?

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To feed the sick desires of a murderous rapist?We know that it wasn't for the 6 year old girl to grow up and cure alzheimer's or be the first female president of the US.

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It seems you'd let the rapist/killer go free, and your happy to let God take the punishment.

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Um, where on earth did you get this impression?

WHAT!?!? I'm nearly 19! haha Well, I certainly don't think the 6 year old girl was edified during her life on earth. But in eternity, she will understand God's justice better seeing her rapist in eternal judgement. KIND of like if my sister was raped and murdered, I would appreciate the justice system in America a whole lot more after her murderer was arrested convicted and executed.But who can fathom all the purposes God has for everything anyways??? It seems kind of pointless to guess why and when and what he's going to do next. He has chosen the lowly things of this world to shame the proud and the foolish things to shame the wise. Our human wisdom cannot comprehend the things God has in store for us. We know his plan is perfect... a very comforting thought in any circumstance.Also, something was said about free will vs. omnipotent God. I can't explain it all. Only God understands it all. But we can approximate with human words and arguments. God's permissive will allows things to happen under the natural laws he created. His direct will, influences things in unobserved ways and sometimes miraculously outside the bounds of nature. His plan is how all things work together for good to those who love him and those who are called according to his purposes. Fatalism is what you people think rules if God is omnipotent. You think because I chose to do something God wanted me to choose it and I had no choice in the first place. God willed that I had the choice. The choice I chose may have displeased him, but he allowed me to make it anyways because that is how this chapter in our lives called human history works. If it did not work this way, it would not have the outcomes he intends to produce.Atheists think that if God was perfect he could produce all the desired outcomes without any pain. This is the epitome of arrogance. Can a vessel say to the potter that made it, "why did you make me this way?"Eternity is a very long time and this is an understatement. Human history is only the first seven chapters of a very long novel. We cannot even imagine what will happen in the future. I understand this argument. It is similar to why the democrats want Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld out of office for the Abu-Ghreb Prison scandal. (of course Bush, etc. are not omnipotent) All this evil happens under His watch, so you think it's his fault.Well, I do not pretend to understand the intricacies of his plan, but we are promised it is a good one and his justice will be served. As I have already explained how from the time/no-time viewpoint his justice will be served. Dude. I already explained how in light of eternity (from her perspective) or in the absence of time boundaries (God's perspective) his justice will be served and injustice vanishes. Are you still ignoring this? Would you like me to explain it again?

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Well, I certainly don't think the 6 year old girl was edified during her life on earth.

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Do you then think that sometimes bad things happen without God wanting to teach us anything?

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But in eternity, she will understand God's justice better seeing her rapist in eternal judgement. KIND of like if my sister was raped and murdered, I would appreciate the justice system in America a whole lot more after her murderer was arrested convicted and executed.

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But that doesn't seem like justice. That seems like revenge.

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But who can fathom all the purposes God has for everything anyways???

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Well, you do, apparently.I mean, you were the one who made the claims about what God's powers were and what God's purpose for suffering is in the first place.

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It seems kind of pointless to guess why and when and what he's going to do next.

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That seems like a copout to me.You say that God is benevolent and loving, all-powerful and all-knowing.When good things happen to us, we praise God and thank Him for His blessings. We seem to be able to understand what God has done in these cases, and we consider them consistent with our notion of a benevolent, loving God, right?However, when bad things happen that do not seem to be consistent with a God who is benevolent, loving, all-powerful God, er throw up our hands and conclude that we just don't understand God's ways, but that what we think is a really bad thing is somehow good in a way only God can understand.Seems kind of biased, doesn't it? Giving God credit for the good stuff but not holding Him responsible for the bad stuff, and also considering Him all-poweful at the same time.

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Our human wisdom cannot comprehend the things God has in store for us.

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Then you cannot ever claim that God ever bestows any blessings or any curses, right? You just can't know anything about what God does.

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I understand this argument. It is similar to why the democrats want Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld out of office for the Abu-Ghreb Prison scandal. (of course Bush, etc. are not omnipotent) All this evil happens under His watch, so you think it's his fault.

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But God isn't just a "watcher" according to you.He's the cause of everything.God has control of every single thing that happens in the Universe, right?If He has control of everything at all times, He is responsible. You cannot logically have a God that is in complete control of everything and also have free will.Free will in this case is an illusion, because a God that controls everything already knew what was going to happen in every instant in every corner of the Universe before it happened.If you'd like to back away from this idea, be my guest.

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Atheists think that if God was perfect he could produce all the desired outcomes without any pain.

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No, I don't think that the absence of all pain is the claim.It's obvious, though, that there is so much more horrific pain and suffering than necessary.

Well, just to toss in an extra wrinkle, what if her rapist converts to Christianity? I mean, honestly and sincerely, and recieves forgivness from his sins from God?Wouldn't that piss her off, maybe a little? Wouldn't she maybe think "what the fuck? It's not God's place to forgive that man, it's mine." On the other hand, if the murderer made such a convincing speech that the President tearfully pardoned him, maybe you'd come to a completely different conclusion?I guess the point is, one can hardly posit heaven as a place where cosmic scores are settled in a religion that believes in ultimate universal redemption for the asking. Actually, it's the definition of "perfect."

If you cannot forgive, then how can you be forgiven?Surely you have forgotten all these biblical explanations Crash?And what if God foresees the suffering and pain of the cross? Shall he do it? It is done.As for the whole freewill thing being false Schraff, I personally think I've refuted it in that other thread with SleepingDragon. And so I doubt Hangdawg needs heed these doubters.

"Questioners" would be the better term, I think. Like that guy in the Bible. What was his name? Oh yeah, Thomas.

So, is God in cntrol of everything or not?Oh, and stop bashing doubters. Most of our greatest thinkers have been great doubters, as well.I'm reading a great book called Doubt--A History by Jennifer Michael Hecht right now, and here is one of my favorite bits so far: This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-19-2004 09:21 PM

It's not that I enjoy bashing doubters, the thing is though - they're full of doubt."Doubt - A History". ROFL, how fitting that is for you Schraff, as you're always here, doubting and fighting against God like a bull terrier.Like "Clarice" says in Silence of the lambs, can you turn that philosphy onto yourself? Can you judge yourself and your own position with doubt? Do you doubt your doubt Clariiiiice?

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It's not that I enjoy bashing doubters, the thing is though - they're full of doubt.

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I didn't ask you to stop enjoying it, I asked you to stop doing it.

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"Doubt - A History". ROFL, how fitting that is for you Schraff, as you're always here, doubting and fighting against God like a bull terrier.

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Fighting against God?How can I fight against something if I can't tell if it exists or not?

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Like "Clarice" says in Silence of the lambs, can you turn that philosphy onto yourself? Can you judge yourself and your own position with doubt?

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Sure, I do it all the time, actually.

A LOT of bad things have happened in my life. I am glad for it. I used to be VERY arrogant, and still tend to be. In fact, participating in this forum has been a bad thing for me sometimes, because it tends to make me more arrogant, but I'm getting over that. By applying Bible doctrines to situations in my life I have gained a great deal of humility and learned a lot more about God in the process. He has been faithful to not test me beyond what I can bear, and His grace has always been sufficient for me. His power is made perfect in my weaknesses.We gain wisdom as humans when we apply Bible doctrine in life. This earthly life by God's design teaches us about His attributes. Shraf, you cannot even imagine what it will be like to be out of this body with it's sin nature. Now we know in part, then we will know fully even as we are fully known. Now we see but a poor reflection, but then perfection will come. Of course I don't. I only know what God has told us in his word. Suffering in this life for the believer is either for edification and blessing or for discipline to bring the believer back to God if he has strayed.But the more one knows the more sorrow one has because the world is filled with suffering. But this is meaningless. The world in it's present form is passing away. Pleasure, wisdom, suffering, power, money, everything else this world has to offer, is meaningless. Only a relationship with God is meaningful and can give meaning to the things of this world. Nope. It's justice. However, I wouldn't hang my happiness on seeing her murderer die. I would also hope and pray that her murderer DID believe in Christ before he died. Eternal judgement is not something to be wished upon anyone. I'm just saying that after judgement by God, no one will question his justice and righteousness. Even those in hell will agree they deserved what they got. Who has known the mind of God? But we have the mind of Christ. Now we know in part, then we shall know fully. I'm saying right now we cannot know all the whys hows whens and whats. It's father's day, so I'll use the Hebrews analogy of God as our father. When I was a little kid, my parents did things I couldn't understand, thought were unfair, or just plain didn't agree with. Now that I'm older I see their purposes behind the things they did and am very glad for it.It's the same way with God. At first I didn't understand why God allowed the things to happen to me that did, but now I do. In fact I even relish setbacks, challenges, sufferings, and whatnot, because it gives me more strength in my weakness, beacuse I depend and trust on God instead of myself. I also get opportunities to show God's strength to others, and I also store up treasures for myself in heaven. When I get to heaven I will understand even better the whys and hows. [qs]Then you cannot ever claim that God ever bestows any blessings or any curses, right? You just can't know anything about what God does. I think Mike's already explained this somewhere else. But why not? Why can't a God who's in complete control give us free will? Are you limiting God's power by saying he can't give us free will? That is dumb. If God could not give us free will he wouldn't be all powerful would He? Human arguments about God are foolish. No. God to you is an illusion. Suppose I'm right and you're wrong. Suppose God is real and as great as I know He is. If He is infintely greater than you, infact only because of him are you alive, who are you to say what is necessary???

I would pray that her rapist did receive Christ. This would not change the fact he deserves the death penalty. But it would change the fact that that person will not spend eternity in hell. Your emotions cloud this issue. No. This is how YOU think NOW. Don't apply your idiocy and subjectivity to things you do not understand. Why not? All sins were paid for in full on the Cross by the only perfect sacrifice, Christ. This satisfied God's justice so that all who accept him are justified. At the final judgement, two things will count: did you believe in Christ, and if so, what fruit of the spirit did you produce with the spiritual life that he gave you?