Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.

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Nothing happens apart from God's will. Not even a sparrow falls from the sky without his knowledge. Why should we accept the good things and not the bad? The bad things are necessary for growth and increased capacity to enjoy the good things.

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What "growth" or "increased capacity to enjoy the good things" comes from a 6 year old who is raped and murdered?Why does God cause that to happen every day around the world?

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Atheist worldview is critically defective because its starting assumptions (few that they be) assumes there is no God/miracles. Theism is just the opposite; many assumptions including the existence of a knowable God and His miracles. This is an irreconciable gulf - the existence of God.

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I find your wording very interesting.You describe the Athiest worldview as "critically defective" because it has a starting assumption.Then you describe theism, which also has a starting assumption, as "just the opposite", which I guess I can take to mean that theism is somehow not "critically defective".The problem with this viewpoint is it is wrong.Atheism/Agnosticism does not "assume" there is no supernatural.There is no rational basis for belief in the supernatural, so nothing at all is assumed.It is the theists who assume a great deal in spite there being no evidence for the supernatural.(As an Agnostic, I will not conclude that there is no supernatural, just that I can't tell if there is or not)You are saying, in effect, that the Atheist worldview is "critically defective" because it saaumes that there are no invisible pink unicorns, and the "unicornist"s" assumptions are just the opposite.

As you've probably already read, yes, I am an agnostic.What does that mean?Well, for all intents and purposes, since I have not yet seen or heard of any evidence for any supernatural anything, I am what one might call a practical Atheist.However, philosophically, I am an Agnostic, because I cannot completely rule out the possibility of the supernatural due to a complete lack of evidence.Just because there is no evidence of invisible pink unicorns pushing down on our heads, this appearing to cause gravity, doesn't mean it is 100% impossible that this is happening.However, even if the supernatural existed, why do we think we could ever comprehend or understand it? IOW, if it existed, is it even knowable?I also live in the world of probabilities, as does everyone else. Is it more likely, given the claims of theists judged against the reality of life, more or less probable that the supernatural exists, inasmuch as it affects our daily lives?From where I'm standing, it is not very likely at all that the supernatural has any effect on us, if it does exist.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-11-2004 07:40 AM

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To make a very long detailed story short: Micah presents the gospel of Christ to the girl all the while seeing the demon come and go throughout the room trying first to seduce him and second to kill him. The girl is healed from her multiple personality disorder for a short time, but says she does not think she can believe in Christ. Micah then sees the demon return inside of her and her symptoms resume.

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So, you believe this guy?Wow.

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I know this will probably not convince anyone else though as you would have to know Micah and the other girl in the room yourself to be assured of their credibility.

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It's not a matter of credibility.Very credible people think lots of irrational, unfounded things. Very credible people are also less cridible than we think sometimes.If you are taking just Mica's and this woman's word for it, and nobody else but this "demon" was around, I am willing to bet that this story was maybe a way to cover up some hanky panky they decided to get up to.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-11-2004 07:53 AM

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He walks to her house and finds that she has another friend over who is talking about an "imaginary" friend. The girl leads him upstairs to the girl who is exhibiting symptoms of multiple personality disorder.

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If this woman was hearing voices, then she is exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia, not multiple personality disorder.True MPD is actually very rare, and Schizophrenia sufferers commonly start "hearing voices" or seeing people that aren't there in their early twenties. Am I guessing correctly that this is the age range we are talking about?If this is the correct age range, and she is in the early stages of developing Schizophrenia, it wouldn't be unusual for the woman's symptoms to come and go.Talking to this woman about the Gospel will not help her if she is schizophrenic, only medical treatment can. She may have a neurological disorder; there is something wrong with her brain.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-11-2004 08:05 AM

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Would you bind God's actions to the realm of human actions?
What you described was a horrible thing among many that have occured in human history. You mistakenly assume that if God is good and all-powerful, his character demands that no bad can exist.

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But you said that nothing happens without it being allowed by God.It only logically follows that the rape and murder of a 6 year old child must be allowed by God.

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I can completely understand your viewpoint, except because it is limited it is flawed. Time may seem like an awful long... well, time with an awful lot of stuff in it, but it is meaningless. What happens happens. There will be a time though when God will bring all to account and will bring justice (not equality) to all.

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But this still leaves you with the problem of your claim that all things happening being allowed only through the will of God, including the rape and murder of 6 year old children.

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That child who was the victim of rape and murder went to heaven.

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So what?That child was tortured and suffered horribly before having their life stolen from them.Why would God put a child on the Earth just to feed the sick desires of a murderous pedophile?

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He will be blessed greatly in eternity (if that is an applicable time-based word). Jesus said many who would be first will be last in heaven, and many who would be least will be greatest. He also said it is far better to be cast into the sea with a millstone about one's neck than to harm a little one.

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But what did the child learn from being raped and murdered at 6 years old? Isn't that your justification for God causing pain and suffering?

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Just because God has held off his justice at the present time does not mean he will always hold it off. If indeed time is meaningless to God, then he never held it off. And if he never alowed situations of injustice, how would we, his creations, be able to comprehend his justice, righteousness, and love?

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Time may be meaningless to God, but God made time meaningful to us.I can understand justice without the rape and murder of thousands of 6 year old children.I'm sorry, but there cannot be any "justice" in God allowing this to happen probably millions of times over the millenia if He is in complete control of everything.You cannot have an all-powerful God and a God of justice and love at the same time.Again, all of this is plain old post hoc reasoning.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-11-2004 08:27 AM

Who were the witnesses to this event?

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The difference of opinion between you and I is that I believe that eternity spent in the presence of the Lord in great unimaginable blessings is more than compensation for the worst suffering possible in this finite life.

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Actually, the difference between you and I is that you choose to not address the glaring logical flaws in your theology, while I do.Remember, you are the one who has set up these parameters; that God causes suffering to teach us lessons, and that nothing happens without God's sanction.

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It is in God's compensation that his justice and love are made known to that child.
I know that if you could ask that child in heaven if he holds any grudge against God for what happened to him, he would reply no.

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Well, you kind of have to believe that in order to justify your belief in an all-powerful god that would put millions of children on the Earth just to feed the sick desires of murderous pedophiles, don't you?Tell, me, what possible lesson could God have taught that child while she was being raped and murdered?

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Micah witnessed both the girl's action's and the demon's actions. He actually saw and heard the demon (not just a dark feeling). He went into great visual detail about it.
The other girl in the room witnessed only the sick girl's actions (not the demon).

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So, nobody else besides Micah and this posessed woman witnessed what happened, right?Tell me, how long were they alone in her room together?

But what did God teach the six year old child by causing her to be raped and murdered?

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I did not say learning things was the reason for all suffering although it is usually a big part.

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Actually, that is what you said: The above certainly seems to say, quite clearly, that God wills everything to happen, no matter how horrible or disgusting.It also seems to clearly say that bad things are necessary for growth and understanding of good things.Are you softening this statement at this point in the discussion?Because, if you aren't, then you basically are saying that it is God's will that 6 year old children are raped and murdered for no good reason.I hope you realize that nobody will think less of you if you decide to change your stance if you have rethought things.

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It still annoys me that Schrafinator says God causes rape/killings though.

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It's not my idea, it's hangdawg's.He's the one that says that nothing happens except by the will of God, so the rape and murder of 6 year olds must happen by the will of God.It is a simple logical conclusion.

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From God's point of view, he will recieve the child after her murder, and she will reside in heaven like satan resides in the mouth of the unbelieving.

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Wow, you can speak from God's point of view? Pretty arrogant of you, wouldn't you say?Also, demonizing "unbelievers" is SO Spanish Inquisition. You must be disappointed that you can't throw all of us Satan-mouthed unbelievers in the stocks, or burn us at the stake like they used to, huh?

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An atheist does two things, they say "God doesn't exist" and when it doesn't work, they then say "he's the bad guy". So which one is it. WHy do they entangle themselves with this? Can they now please choose which one it is, bad guy or no existo.

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You forgot to include what the believer says.It goes like this.Atheist: "I don't believe in God"Theist: "How can you not believe? Look at all the wonders of His work on the Earth and for his people! He is the merciful, most loving allmighty who sees and controlls everything all!"Atheist: "If nothing happens without God letting it happen, why is there so much pointless suffering, like children getting raped and murdered? It seems like he isn't that merciful or loving if he lets that kind of horror occur."Theist: Satan resides in your mouth, unbeliever!

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I am trying to show that unbelievers are against God, but not all of them ofcourse. Yet many, many people ARE against him. Especially Schraff, when she said that God is responsible for rapes/killings.

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I didn't say that, hangdawg did.He said that ALL THINGS happen only if God allows it.ALL things.ALL.Not only good things, or just things, or loving things.ALL things.So, it logically follows that a God that is responsible for ALL things is responsible for the rape and murder of children.That ALL things happen through God is hangdawg's position, not mine.I don't know if God causes anything to happen at all, because I haven't yet seen any evidence of this happening.

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Even if he allows all things it doesn't mean he is responsible for them.

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No?God is in control of everything, according to hangdawg.Nothing happens without the sanction of God accordingto him.

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If I let my brother fly my helicopter and he crashes it because he fell asleep, is that my fault?

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If you are all-knowing and all-powerful, and also all-loving, then yes, it is indeed your fault.Mike as human is limited in his power, yet mike as all-powerful, omnicient God has limitless power.Furthermore, Mike as God who is in control of everything is most certainly at fault.Remember, this isn't my argument as to the nature of God, it's hangdawg's.

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I can see that God might allow all things, and without his universe, nothing would happen. However, he is not responsible for the murderer's act, the murderer is. That's logical, yet you'll deny it because of your unbelief.

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No, it's not logical as hangdawg has described the nature of what God knows and what God can do.Hangdawg says that God is in control of every single thing that happens in the universe, and that the bad things that happen to us are to teach us something.

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No, he is logically responsible for creating the universe in which someone is responsible for a rape and murder.

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So, God is not all-powerful and doesn't have control over everything that happens?

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He "allows" it is different to he is "responsible" for it.

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If God is all-powerful and every single thing happens through his will, then he is responsible.

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Handdawg is young. He might have said the bad things are to teach us something. That's too simplistic though.

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I agree. That's why I asked the questions I did of him. It seems that he doesn't see things our way, however, and seems to be holding tight to his original claim.

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In some cases, bad things may well teach us something, but the God of the bible has made it clear that basically, - evil is what satan is about, and Good is what God is about. I'm sure you would have read the NT, and will see my point.

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Well, except that if God is all-powerful, he's about evil, too.

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What about if I also know that I can raise my brother from the dead?

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Well, OK, but how is this relevant?

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By your logic, my mother is responsible if I get murdered or die, because she knew I would die one day, yes?

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No, because your mother isn't all-powerful and all-knowing, so she most likely had no power to know what would happen, nor to stop it.

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Not to step on Hangdawg's toes here, but what? Is he your prophet?
The nature of God and what he can do is in the bible, and you know that Schraffy.

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I'm having a conversation with a person who has a particular interpretation of the Bible. I'm simply exploring the moral and theological and logical implications of his interpretation as he has stated them. That's the fun.

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Didn't I say that his will be done? If the girl resides in paradise from henceforth forever, then what was God's will?

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To feed the sick desires of a murderous rapist?We know that it wasn't for the 6 year old girl to grow up and cure alzheimer's or be the first female president of the US.

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It seems you'd let the rapist/killer go free, and your happy to let God take the punishment.

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Um, where on earth did you get this impression?