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Author Topic:   Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 166 of 253 (117031)
06-21-2004 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Hangdawg13
06-21-2004 1:05 AM


Don't apply your idiocy and subjectivity to things you do not understand.
Ah, I see. The old excuse - "in the hereafter, all will be made clear." Well, that's fine, I guess.
All sins were paid for in full on the Cross by the only perfect sacrifice, Christ.
All sins were paid in full to God. What about the debts owed to other people?
I guess what I'm getting at is, it sounds like a situation where a guy owes me and Bill money. So the guy goes to Bill and says "I can't pay the debt." And Bill says "that's ok, all your debts are forgiven."
Well, that's great for the guy, but what right does Bill have to forgive debts that he isn't owed? We say that criminals have a "debt to society", and we posit heaven as a place of judgement for those who escape Earthly justice. But what right does God have to forgive that debt when it's not owed to him in the first place?
Maybe you can't understand my questions or my viewpoint, and it really doesn't matter, because I'm pretty confident God doesn't exist. But maybe you can understand why I find something hollow in a religion's attempt to portray itself as simultaneously vindictive and retributive.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-21-2004 03:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 1:05 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 167 of 253 (117140)
06-21-2004 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Hangdawg13
06-21-2004 12:56 AM


Re: Ok an athiests turn then
quote:
We gain wisdom as humans when we apply Bible doctrine in life.
I think that a lot of biblical doctrine has some very good applications to living a good life, which is why they are quite similar to the doctrines of many other reigions that predate and have come after Christianity.
Many core Christian concepts about how to live and treat each other are the same as those of Humanism.
Just because these concepts work doesn't mean God exists, and it certainly doesn't mean that God controls everything at all times.
quote:
Suffering in this life for the believer is either for edification and blessing or for discipline to bring the believer back to God if he has strayed.
So, what edification did the 6 year old child who was raped and murdered get?
What could she have done that was so horrible as to need that kind do discipline from God?
You have already admitted that that 6 year old didn't learn anything from God by getting raped and murdered, but now you still say that this is the reason for suffering.
Doesn't make sense.
quote:
Nope. It's justice.
How is it not revenge?
quote:
At first I didn't understand why God allowed the things to happen to me that did, but now I do.
I thought you just said that we can't know God's reasons for why He does anything?
Which is it?
Can you know why God does things or can't you?
quote:
Why can't a God who's in complete control give us free will? Are you limiting God's power by saying he can't give us free will? That is dumb. If God could not give us free will he wouldn't be all powerful would He?
It's not if He is all-powerful or not.
It is if he controls every single thing that happens in every corner of the universe or not, which you said He did.
If He controls everything that happens, free will cannot exist.
If free will exists, He does not have control of everything that happens.
That is only logical.
quote:
Human arguments about God are foolish.
Then all of your arguments that make specific claims about the nature of God and what He does are foolish, too.
quote:
Suppose I'm right and you're wrong. Suppose God is real and as great as I know He is. If He is infintely greater than you, infact only because of him are you alive, who are you to say what is necessary???
So, are you saying that the rapes and murders of many thousands of children over the centuries are considered by God to be necessary?
That is one sick, immoral God you worship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 12:56 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 3:30 PM nator has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 750 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 168 of 253 (117192)
06-21-2004 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by nator
06-21-2004 1:50 PM


Re: Ok an athiests turn then
Just because these concepts work doesn't mean God exists, and it certainly doesn't mean that God controls everything at all times.
Yet again you reveal that you are against God, even though you claim to think objectively about the matter and "doubt your doubting". I was explaining your question, not even attempting to PROVE God's existence, yet you turn it around to try to negate His existence. Shraf, you are incapable of having an objective thought about God since every fiber of your being is against him. With such impenatrable arrogance you can never know God.
You have already admitted that that 6 year old didn't learn anything from God by getting raped and murdered, but now you still say that this is the reason for suffering.
I said the reason for BELIEVER's suffering is either blessing or discipline and ultimately edification in this life OR THE NEXT. The little girl didn't get that far IN THIS LIFE. HOWEVER, she will be blessed greatly in eternity.
Doesn't make sense.
Nothing to do with God makes any sense to you because you have rejected him. A simple decision to accept him instead of fight him, and you will be amazed at how the pieces of the puzzle fall into place and things WILL make sense, even to your critical mind. But you could never do this. As long as you think you are something when you are nothing, you will remain as you are, arrogant and condemned.
I thought you just said that we can't know God's reasons for why He does anything?
Which is it?
Again schraf, you are willfully ignoring what I said. I said that we cannot know ((((ALL)))) of God's reasons. We know in part (what he has told us in His word) and after we are with God in heaven we will know fully.
It's not if He is all-powerful or not.
So you are denying God's essesence? Well in that case we are not even talking about the same god and what you are saying may be true of some other god that is not omnipotent.
My God is omnipotent, which means he can give us free-will. He can also alow this power experiment called human history to unfold according to it.
If free will exists, He does not have control of everything that happens.
That is only logical.
It is human logic which fails because it puts human limits on God. It's like saying God can't make something so heavy he can't lift it. God is not bound by anything except his own character. If he wants to give us free-will so we can see for ourselves which is better, humility or arrogance, then so be it.
Then all of your arguments that make specific claims about the nature of God and what He does are foolish, too.
My claims about God's nature and character are founded on the principles from God's Word, therefore they are not human in origin.
Edited to add:
So, are you saying that the rapes and murders of many thousands of children over the centuries are considered by God to be necessary?That is one sick, immoral God you worship.
As you've just shown to me in your arguments above, you have no understanding of God's character and his essence does not enter your logic. This statement only reveals more ignorance and arrogance on your part. I've already shown you how God's character and integrity remains perfect. You have not refuted my statements, yet you keep coming back to this argument (4 times), which is a purely emotional reaction and unfounded on theological doctrines. Essentially you are ignoring the truth in favor of a lie.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'".
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-21-2004 04:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by nator, posted 06-21-2004 1:50 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2004 9:40 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 183 by nator, posted 06-24-2004 5:14 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 169 of 253 (117320)
06-21-2004 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Hangdawg13
06-21-2004 3:30 PM


Re:Just a warning cos you're a good member so far
Hi Hangdawg.
I like you and your postings, but I only have one problem with your post. I hope you are not offended in anyway, but I'm hoping you will hear me out.
As long as you think you are something when you are nothing, you will remain as you are, arrogant and condemned
To be honest, I don't think the bible tells us that we can make such a statement. That's my only problem with your post. Hope you understand.
You see, Schraff did believe once, and might have even confessed Christ. Who are we to know or judge her? Again, I'm not against you in any way, but I don't really want you to tell Schraff she's condemned. I don't believe that.
You see, if I am only able to testify to Christ a good witness, can I trust he will hear me? I have only known Schraff as a good person, indeed he shall hear me.
Let us not say in our hearts, "we have Abraham as father". God is able to raise children from the rocks. This thing I am telling you comes from faith. I am here as a witness.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-21-2004 08:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 3:30 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 10:00 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 750 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 170 of 253 (117327)
06-21-2004 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by mike the wiz
06-21-2004 9:40 PM


Re: Re:Just a warning cos you're a good member so far
Yes, you are right. And I am definately not offended! I almost erased that whole line after I wrote it, but went on with it anyways because I was late for work and didn't give it enough thought... my bad! My apologies Schraf.
I am not one to say who is condemned. If Schrafinator has at one time believed in Christ, she is sealed with the Holy Spirit and will be in heaven some day no matter what.
Like I said, God is ALWAYS working the arrogance out of me. It still pops out from time to time.
Thanks for pointing that out Mike. I enjoy reading your posts a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2004 9:40 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2004 10:04 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 172 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 10:05 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 184 by nator, posted 06-24-2004 5:16 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 171 of 253 (117330)
06-21-2004 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Hangdawg13
06-21-2004 10:00 PM


Re: Re:Just a warning cos you're a good member so far
I knew you would understand, as it was the spirit that spoke, and I know you believe in the spirit.
Great stuff!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 10:00 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 172 of 253 (117331)
06-21-2004 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Hangdawg13
06-21-2004 10:00 PM


D o o m e d !
I guess I am doomed then. I've been told that often enough so it must be true. I've never been whatever it was you said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 10:00 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 10:14 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 174 by mike the wiz, posted 06-21-2004 10:17 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 175 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 11:24 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 253 (117337)
06-21-2004 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by NosyNed
06-21-2004 10:05 PM


Re: D o o m e d !
Hey Ned. You're not home free yet. IMHO, GOD really couldn't care less if you believe in him or not. Afterall, would you be concerned if an ant didn't believe in you?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 10:05 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 11:27 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 174 of 253 (117339)
06-21-2004 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by NosyNed
06-21-2004 10:05 PM


Re: D o o m e d !
Not so Ned.
I am a most pleased witness. You have also said that God's word could be in the nature, or earth. Yes, yes - I know, not as a believer you said these things.
Yes, yes, I know - you are not a believer. But atleast let me have away with my delusions of revival.
I am in no way convinced you are doomed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 10:05 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 750 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 175 of 253 (117358)
06-21-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by NosyNed
06-21-2004 10:05 PM


Re: D o o m e d !
As long as you are alive and kicking, you have an opportunity to believe in Christ and therefore are not doomed. If you never accept him even unto death you will not receive eternal life.
Behind all this argumentation, which amounts to nothing, is a simple decision to either accept or reject God.
Were you referring to "sealed with the spirit"? I get that from Ephesians which says something to the effect that when you believed you were sealed with the spirit. In other words you are preserved for the exit ressurection of all believers (rapture) and are guaranteed a place in heaven. How you continue to "work out" your salvation determines what inheiritance you receive in heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 10:05 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 750 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 176 of 253 (117359)
06-21-2004 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
06-21-2004 10:14 PM


Re: D o o m e d !
Jar, is there anything from the Bible that you believe to be truth? It seems to me you have rejected everything the Bible says in favor of your "humble" opinions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 10:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 11:37 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 177 of 253 (117361)
06-21-2004 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Hangdawg13
06-21-2004 11:27 PM


Re: D o o m e d !
Hangdawg13
Sure, GOD said, "Love GOD, and love others as you love yourself". But that's a pretty broad commandment and directed only to Christians.
Ask yourself why GOD would care whether someone believed in him or not? If GOD is, as you and I believe, really awsome, would he really be so trivial as to worry about what Ned says or even believes?
Did you ever read the "The Last Battle"?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 11:27 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 11:58 PM jar has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 750 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 178 of 253 (117365)
06-21-2004 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by jar
06-21-2004 11:37 PM


Re: D o o m e d !
Ask yourself why GOD would care whether someone believed in him or not?
(assuming your married) ask yourself whether you would care if your wife knew you or not.
would he really be so trivial as to worry about what Ned says or even believes?
No one is trivial to God. Just because he is awesome doesn't mean he loses track of the little things. This is what makes him so awesome. The God of the universe cares about us!
But God has integrity. His righteousness and justice must be satisfied. If God did not adhere to his own character, he would cease to be God.
edited to add: no I haven't read "The Last Battle".
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-21-2004 10:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 11:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by jar, posted 06-22-2004 12:16 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 179 of 253 (117368)
06-22-2004 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Hangdawg13
06-21-2004 11:58 PM


Re: D o o m e d !
Well, are you, or your wife, or anyone that you know, GODs?
That is not just a passing question, it is meant most seriously.
Are you GOD?
But the topic is post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.
These last few exchanges, with me and others in this thread, might be very productive.
If you look at your last post you might note that it is totally written from YOUR perspective, from YOUR point of view and Christian Bias. And it is totally unrelated to what I had said.
I said that I cannot imagine GOD getting too uptight because a human denies he exists.
You respond
But God has integrity. His righteousness and justice must be satisfied. If God did not adhere to his own character, he would cease to be God.
as though what Ned believes requires GOD to repond, as though Ned (or anyone else for that matter) can attack, threaten, damage or challenge GOD's righteousness and justice. As though GODs existence is dependant on Ned's belief, or your belief, or my belief.
That is silly.
You say...
If God did not adhere to his own character, he would cease to be God.
That makes GOD sound like some corner pimp that just got dissed. Now he needs to get in somebody's face.
No, IMHO, GOD is far more than that. GOD actually cares enough to send his son down to get killed for all the folk that didn't believe in him. Who exactly do you think he wanted to save? Believers?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-21-2004 11:58 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-23-2004 1:44 PM jar has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 750 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 180 of 253 (117909)
06-23-2004 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by jar
06-22-2004 12:16 AM


Re: D o o m e d !
Well, are you, or your wife, or anyone that you know, GODs?
No, but in the Bible we have a picture of God's love for us as the love between a bridegroom and bride in marriage.
Christ's love for the Church is like that of a husband's love for his wife.
Again, you have ignored God's Word and replaced it with your own subjective thinking.
If you look at your last post you might note that it is totally written from YOUR perspective, from YOUR point of view and Christian Bias. And it is totally unrelated to what I had said.
No it is written from the BIBLICAL perspective. It is not based on my subjective experience or attitudes, but the BIBLE. YOUR statements are purely speculation on your part and not related to any outside source. Therefore it is YOU who is subjective and injecting personal BIAS into the argument.
as though Ned (or anyone else for that matter) can attack, threaten, damage or challenge GOD's righteousness and justice.
Sure, any one can do this. Satan is the accuser. He challenges God's character, and so do people operating under arrogance.
As though GODs existence is dependant on Ned's belief, or your belief, or my belief.
I never said that. OUR eternal life and OUR relationship with him depends on OUR belief. Christ said this.
That makes GOD sound like some corner pimp that just got dissed. Now he needs to get in somebody's face.
What???
That is silly.
If god is not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, sovereign, just, righteous, love, immutable, eternal life, and truth, what kind of god would he be??? God cannot violate his own character because it is his character that makes him God.
No, IMHO, GOD is far more than that. GOD actually cares enough to send his son down to get killed for all the folk that didn't believe in him. Who exactly do you think he wanted to save? Believers?
Of course he cares enough to send his son to die for the sins of ((ALL)). This is grace. Who is saved by grace? Those who believe.
You seem to think everyone will be saved. This is contrary to what the Bible tells us and God's character. Jesus said the path leading to eternal life is narrow and few find it, but the path leading to destruction is wide and many follow it.
Again you have replaced your "humble" opinions with what God has told us in His Word.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-23-2004 12:47 PM
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-23-2004 12:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by jar, posted 06-22-2004 12:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 06-23-2004 2:07 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
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