Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.

Well, give me your humble scientific opinion of how he was healed. I know you have one. You're practically bursting at the seams ready to spring it on the first believer that comes along... so you might as well spring it on me.Yes, I suppose my example in the other thread was not sufficient for you, but it was the least personal and the easiest to show that free will was not violated.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-07-2004 10:08 PMThis message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-07-2004 10:10 PM

Nothing happens apart from God's will. Not even a sparrow falls from the sky without his knowledge. Why should we accept the good things and not the bad? The bad things are necessary for growth and increased capacity to enjoy the good things. God's grace is sufficient for us and his power is made perfect in weakness. Prayer is primarily for strengthening our relationship with God. It is not a mail order catologue form.I am not sure what I think about faith healing. I am sometimes nauseated by the showy preachers on tv who worke the crowed into a huge emotional fury. I do believe without a doubt that God performs miracles on occasion. I also know that the Bible says that many on judgement day will say: I performed miracles and cast out demons in your name, and Christ will say: away from me you evil doers; I never knew you. I think people place far too much emphasis on faith healing and wrongly use it like the Corinthians were wrongly using tounges. God only works a miracle if it is edifying to the church. Most of the time however God works through the power of his Word and Holy Spirit in the lives of believers.If God exists outside our dimensional reality, why do atheists insist on subjecting him to the bounds of our dimensional reality?
Like sfs said: can the characters of a novel test the author who wrote the novel?

Just because God exists unbound by our realities does not mean he cannot interact with us. It just means He is not bound by the dimensions of our reality when He does interact, which means his METHODS of interaction are not scientifically observable; his interaction is proved experientially in the life of the individual believer and yes by miracles although miracles are largely un-needed today with the completed canon of scripture.Take weather for example. We understand pretty well the physics involved in weather; however we cannot predict the precise manner or time or place in which it will occur. I believe the Bible tells us God is in control of the weather. This is like human history. We understand pretty well the principles involved in people and civilization, but we have no idea how it will all play out. God invented the laws by which nature and man are subject to and by means unknowable to us he influences both to create a huge story pointing to His glory.

Gil, I've done a lot of thinking about this lately. Since last November, I have been hoping to go to Marine Corps OCS this summer. I was supposed to leave July 11. However, my left femur has recently become dislocated making it impossible for me to go.I will not pray for God to heal it for several reasons. I believe what suffering God gives us, he intends for us to bear. In giving me this setback, God has also answered several of my other prayers (post-hoc reasoning, I know). I believe there are very few occasions when asking for a miracle is the right thing to do.The working of miracles is primarily for the purpose of strengthening faith, not for easing suffering.The pastor of my church has always believed that working of miracles was in a category of spiritual gifts that God took completely away after all of the scripture was written because there is no need for them now.I believe however, that he was wrong. God still does these things. What changed my mind that God still works miracles in the church age is the story told by Micah, the guy that lives next door in my dorm. I have already told this story in a previous thread, but I will repeat a few details.Micah was walking down the street praying when he suddenly felt like he should go see this acquaintance. He walks to her house and finds that she has another friend over who is talking about an "imaginary" friend. The girl leads him upstairs to the girl who is exhibiting symptoms of multiple personality disorder. To make a very long detailed story short: Micah presents the gospel of Christ to the girl all the while seeing the demon come and go throughout the room trying first to seduce him and second to kill him. The girl is healed from her multiple personality disorder for a short time, but says she does not think she can believe in Christ. Micah then sees the demon return inside of her and her symptoms resume.There are many interesting details to this story, but the point is because of this I believe God does still work miracles in people's lives.I know this will probably not convince anyone else though as you would have to know Micah and the other girl in the room yourself to be assured of their credibility. For the most part I agree with your method of attaining knowledge about the world. However, if we are finite beings bound to three dimensions and time, and God is infinite, and God is truth, then there must be things we cannot now comprehend or perceive, in which case, your method of obtaining knowledge will leave you terribly ignorant in certain areas. Authority is the reason for this. Without authority everything breaks down including the faith and belief of people. Most people are not thinkers like you. If every nincompoop believer out there were encouraged to get into arguments such as the ones on this site, many would lose faith, because they are not thinkers like you and incapable of coming up with their own arguments. A vast majority of believers do not even know enough Bible doctrine to understand what Christianity is all about, much less debate it.

Would you bind God's actions to the realm of human actions? What you described was a horrible thing among many that have occured in human history. You mistakenly assume that if God is good and all-powerful, his character demands that no bad can exist.I can completely understand your viewpoint, except because it is limited it is flawed. Time may seem like an awful long... well, time with an awful lot of stuff in it, but it is meaningless. What happens happens. There will be a time though when God will bring all to account and will bring justice (not equality) to all.That child who was the victim of rape and murder went to heaven. He will be blessed greatly in eternity (if that is an applicable time-based word). Jesus said many who would be first will be last in heaven, and many who would be least will be greatest. He also said it is far better to be cast into the sea with a millstone about one's neck than to harm a little one.Just because God has held off his justice at the present time does not mean he will always hold it off. If indeed time is meaningless to God, then he never held it off. And if he never alowed situations of injustice, how would we, his creations, be able to comprehend his justice, righteousness, and love?This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-10-2004 09:39 PM

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"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

Perhaps, but out of all the people in America that are professing Christians, I would say a vast majority of them do not know enough Bible doctrine or Christian apologetics to present substantial arguments to the questions raised on this site. Not that every Christian must be well-versed in apologetics. I am simply saying there are reasons why Christians are discouraged from getting into arguments and always testing authority. It is not because God is scared reasoning atheists will find out he's a fraud. It is because many do not have the interest or perseverence in such things to pursue arguments to their conclusion, and will get left alone somewhere doubting their own beliefs. There is a reason a pastor is called a pastor. He keeps his sheep from going astray and is supposed to protect them. Anyway, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-10-2004 10:15 PM

I suppose Rabbi's typically do not believe Jesus was Messiah and Pastors do?

I have always seen a pastor/teacher as the person who leads a church and teaches Bible doctrine to the congregation thereby keeping them from being led astray by deceptive arguments.Rabbi means teacher does it not? Jesus was definately a teacher.I don't believe there is really a difference in function except that their function was outlined a little more clearly in Paul's letters to Timothy.
...I don't know where you're going with this, but I think its getting way off topic...

To me a lot of things are miracles even if I understand the scientific principles behind them, because I know God created those principles. Can you conceive of a universe with completely different laws?However, for now I will ignore the fact that the universe itself is a miracle.For the purposes of "proving" to a hardcore atheist God's action in a miracle I suppose it would have to be something beyond probability of laws of science(1 in 10^46 sound good?) or something completely unexplained by laws of science (millions of Christians vanishing worldwide).

The girl (in her teens) was originally talking about a beautiful girl (the demon) that was with her and helped her do things and helped her see amazing things. She heard the voice and saw the beautiful creature. You are right. This is Schiziophrenia.When Micah presented the gospel to her, her eyes rolled back into her head and she appeared to lose consciousness for some minutes. Micah continued to cite scriptures that said If you believe in Jesus Christ you will be saved. At this the demon became very agitated. It came out of the girl and first tried to seduce him. When Micah simply ignored it and kept reading scriptures, the demon changed form into a hideous indescribable creature and tried to make him believe it would kill him. During this time the girl was fully conscious sitting balled up on the bed rocking back and forth clutching her knees very scared. She said though that she did not think she could believe in Christ right now.She said that her "friend" told her that Micah was lying and he wanted to kill her. Micah saw the demon re-enter the girl. The girl then exhibited the MPD symptoms. She had a complete change of character. Her face contorted and she started screaming and glaring daggers at Micah and becoming violent. She again lost consciousness as her eyes rolled back into her head. When she came to, she was herself again, but claimed to still talk to her "friend".

The difference of opinion between you and I is that I believe that eternity spent in the presence of the Lord in great unimaginable blessings is more than compensation for the worst suffering possible in this finite life.It is in God's compensation that his justice and love are made known to that child.
I know that if you could ask that child in heaven if he holds any grudge against God for what happened to him, he would reply no.

Satan is not omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnipresent.Some believers mistakenly believe Satan is responsible for all bad things.It is arrogance that led to the evil free-will decisions of Satan, his fallen angels, Adam and Eve, and every human being save Christ in human history.Arrogance is the rejection of truth in favor of lies and the attitude that the self is most important. Every evil pattern of thinking and action stems from arrogance.

I don't know if this has anything to what ya'll are discussing but...Aparently, the difference between Adam and Eve (or Esha; she didn't become Eve untill after she sinned) when they sinned is that Esha actually believed the serpents lie that she would become like God. Adam did not believe the serpent, but said, "Ah, what the hell," and ate the fruit his wife gave him anyways.

Micah witnessed both the girl's action's and the demon's actions. He actually saw and heard the demon (not just a dark feeling). He went into great visual detail about it.The other girl in the room witnessed only the sick girl's actions (not the demon).

It makes mathematical sense. If you take the limit as n -> infinite of x/n where x is constant you get zero. If x is time spent in injustice and n is time spent in eternal bliss, injustice vanishes.
This is from the human/time perspective.If you look at it from God's perspective without time:
He will bring justice at the end of human history. Now we see a sort of appeal trial of satan where both God and Satan make their arguments. Since God does not change over time, it does not matter whether he brings justice at the end, the beginning, or the middle. His justice simply IS.