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Author
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Topic: The TRUE reason for the EvC controversy, and why it can not be resolved.
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 16 of 302 (297554)
03-23-2006 10:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by compmage
03-23-2006 4:47 AM
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Science do not recognise the that we're living in a fallen state?
Well, so what. There's no Biblical evidence that supports the Fall either. It's not a tenet of Faith, not part of the Creeds, and is not supported by any evidence. Most Christians find no conflict between the TOE and either the Bible or our Faith. So why is it that some Christians see this conflict? Why do they so wilfully ignore the overwhelming evidence? What is it in their makeup that lets them ignore reality for the sake of an idea that is not supported by the Bible, by the Creeds or by the evidence? In the worlds of the Clergy Project, a statement that has been signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy:
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by compmage, posted 03-23-2006 4:47 AM | | compmage has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 63 of 302 (297789)
03-24-2006 11:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 20 by compmage
03-23-2006 11:33 AM
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Are we special?
You have no problem with a God that created and destroyed life for billions of years, and then pick our one species to whom he promises eternal and blissful life? None what so ever, mainly because that is not my belief. I don't believe that humans are some special critter selected by GOD for some special goodies.
Science says once something is dead, it's dead, yet we believe in the resurrection. There is no proof for that either. That's correct. Any Christian that says he or she knows for sure that there is a resurrection is simply lying to themselves. I believe there is a resurrection, but cannot know until after the fact.
I fail, however, to see how a Christian, who believes in Jesus and all the mirricles that goes with him, the Second Comming, and heaven and hell, and everything else that is unscientific and unprovable in the bible, object to genesis, simply because science says so. There are several, many in fact, reason why I know, not just believe, that the account in Genesis is not true. For one, there is not one story in Genesis but two different mutually exclusive Creation myths in Genesis. The other big thing is that there is overwhelming evidence that the earth and universe are old and that man evolved just like all the other critters we see. It is possible that GOD created the universe last Tuesday and then made it look old. But if that is the case then God is not the Christian GOD but rather Loki, the trickster. I personally believe that GOD created the universe. What science tells us is how He did it.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by compmage, posted 03-23-2006 11:33 AM | | compmage has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 65 of 302 (297794)
03-24-2006 12:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by robinrohan
03-24-2006 12:06 PM
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Re: Are we special?
We are no more (or less) special than a mosquito in my book, but Christianity seems to say we are. Again, that is not something that is held to be true by many if not most Christians.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by robinrohan, posted 03-24-2006 12:06 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Getting way Off Topic
but if you want to start a thread on it I'll be happy to discuss my views related to that.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by robinrohan, posted 03-24-2006 12:56 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Are we special?
see Message 69
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 81 of 302 (298054)
03-25-2006 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
03-25-2006 11:32 AM
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Re: What is GFC saying about the Fall?
It really doesn't much matter. There is no evidence either physically in the real world or Biblically to support the concept of a Fall or changes in basics such as radioactive decay. Until he can present some evidence of such changed conditions it's simply wild speculation.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 11:32 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 2:04 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 87 of 302 (298077)
03-25-2006 2:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
03-25-2006 1:57 PM
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Faith, we are in the science forums.
Unless and until you can provide some evidence of this alleged Fall, it's just dazzling propaganda.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 1:57 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 88 of 302 (298078)
03-25-2006 2:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
03-25-2006 2:04 PM
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Re: What is GFC saying about the Fall?
Again, until you can provide some evidence in support of this Fall all you have is more delusion.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 2:04 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 2:12 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 91 of 302 (298082)
03-25-2006 2:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
03-25-2006 2:12 PM
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Re: What is GFC saying about the Fall?
It still can't be treated as FACT and although I've been polite about it, and assumed there are no nefarious motivations involved, the consistent attacks on my simple point provoke me to say that it's FRAUD to do so, I don't care HOW certain you are about it. And you have not even provided Biblical support for your assertions. All you have done is bring in yet another falsified assertion, that there was some world-wide flood.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 2:12 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 100 of 302 (298097)
03-25-2006 3:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
03-25-2006 2:54 PM
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Science and Christianity?
Science simply did not GO anywhere in the world until then. That's my point. More than any other invention, the idea of or numbering system, zero and decimals as well as algebra and geometry certainly come to mind. And none of those are a Christian invention. The are all Muslim or Chinese in origin. Without the Muslim contributions we would not even be having this discussion.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 2:54 PM | | Faith has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 102 of 302 (298099)
03-25-2006 3:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
03-25-2006 3:13 PM
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Credit where credit is due.
So we agree that the Muslims made the truly great significant contributions. Now can we agree that the Phonecians make another great contribution, the alphabet? Then we will look at what Christianity may have contributed, or what it did to retard advances.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by Faith, posted 03-25-2006 3:13 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Science and Christianity?
I'll believe that. The point is that Christianity is really not responsible for much except retarding science. Even Mendel was pulled from his experiments and told to become an Abbot. There are no real advances that I know of in education or science that I would call Christian. Christians that claim that science or education progressed because of Christianity are simply totally ignoring the record. If it were not for the knowledge retained in Muslim Spain, Europe would likely STILL be in the Dark Ages. Since education was often limited under the Christian Theocracies to just the Clergy, it's not at all surprising that some outstanding science came from Christian institutions. But it must also be noted that most of the advances were made in spite of Christianity. That continues today. Those Christians today that oppose the TOE and teaching the true age of the earth and universe are as guilty of promoting and encouraging ignorance. Little has changed.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 112 by MangyTiger, posted 03-25-2006 7:33 PM | | MangyTiger has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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I'll be happy to replay it for the folk.
in Message 67 Robin said:
I thought there was something in the Christian tradition about God sacrificing His only begotten Son for the sins of mankind. I heard that somewhere, I'm certain. To which jar replied in Message 69 and again in Message 71:
Getting way Off Topic
but if you want to start a thread on it I'll be happy to discuss my views related to that. The robin in Message 74 misrepresented what jar said by posting:
A typical tactic by Jar. If he doesn't want to talk about something, he says it's off-topic. You really need to learn to read what's posted instead of what you think was said. If I had not wanted to talk about the subject why would I have said "but if you want to start a thread on it I'll be happy to discuss my views related to that." Why do you wilfully ignore what people say? Now if you have anything else to say about the subject take it to the proper thread which is Message 1
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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You can't even keep track of what thread you're in.
LOL Look, take it to the proper thread.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 171 of 302 (298621)
03-27-2006 10:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 156 by compmage
03-27-2006 9:27 AM
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Well, if you think there was a Fall
and Biblical Support for a Fall then start a thread on it and I'll gladly discuss it with you. But frankly, The two verses you mentioned do NOT support such an assertion.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by compmage, posted 03-27-2006 9:27 AM | | compmage has replied |
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