Jesus The false prophet

That doesn't follow. Many sons do not speak for their fathers; that doesn't terminate their familial ties. I don't think there is any lying involved. Even if Jesus actually said these things, he wasn't lying; he was just wrong. There's a difference. Again, why are you assuming there is lying involved? Can't someone simply be wrong without being a liar?Jon

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Love your enemies!

According to the passage frako cited, a prophet is only false if they claim to speak false things through God.Did Jesus speak false things through God when he predicted the end times?The things were false.Did he claim to speak them through God?JonEdited by Jon, : / → ?

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Love your enemies!

Was that an attempt to not address the issue?Can you show in any book where Jesus speaks something that he both claims to be from God and that also ends up being false?No one is denying that it might be there; but we do want to see it if it is.Jon

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Love your enemies!

That makes one of us.If you'd like to convince me or anyone else, though, you'll have to present some evidence. Sure. But you haven't given any citation in the books where Jesus makes these predictions which involve him saying 'I speak for God; that is my purpose and duty'. The commander is a known representative; where does Jesus make known his power to represent God in the books where he makes these false predictions? What is your support for this claim? Is it only by falsely trivializing the religious role of a prophet that you are able to support your claims that Jesus is ever described in terms that would make him a 'false prophet'?I'm all ready to buy your conclusions; you just have to present some support for them.Jon

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Love your enemies!

Well, I guess that becomes your problem then. This is certainly not a position based on an actual analysis of the texts in question. I don't think a reconciliation in this manner is really possible. Again, this becomes a matter of your own belief, which I do not think is based on a proper analysis of the texts in question.

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Mark 9:1 (NRSV):

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And he said to them, 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.'

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How you reconcile this with the fact that everyone to whom Jesus could have possibly spoken this is now dead while there is yet no Kingdom is quite beyond me. I cannot see anything else in Mark that would make it possible to 'interpret away' this obviously failed prediction. They're all problematic if you want to hold to the notion that Jesus was God incarnate who laid out the divine Plan for all to see.But this notion isn't supported in Mark or Matthew where Jesus makes these failed predictions.Thus, I see no difficulty in the proposition that Jesus was a prophet who didn't necessarily speak for God in everything he said.Jon

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Love your enemies!

Absolutely not. We see no such thing; no such thing exists; there is no Jesus in the OT.JonEdited by Jon, : No reason given.

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Love your enemies!

Why are we worrying about the veracity of the words attributed to Jesus? Neither frako nor anyone else has yet demonstrated thateven if not truethey would be proof that Jesus was a false prophet.Why argue on the premises when they wouldn't even support the conclusion anyway?Jon

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Love your enemies!

The messianic Jews were still expecting the coming of the Messiah; for early Christians this meant Jesus returning to fulfill the messianic expectations of his followers.Part of these expectations involved wars, revolts, violence, etc. When the first revolt began, many messianic Jews saw the fighting as the beginning of the end of the ages; naturally, they felt that the Messiah would be coming very soon to tip the scales of the war.The Christian Messiah, Jesus, wasn't showing up, leading some early Christians to wonder whether they had actually been following the right movement: "Where's Jesus? He's supposed to be here! He ain't here! We got duped!" Mark was written during or shortly after this revolt (average date given is 70 a.d.), and is partly concerned with dispelling the notion that Jesus is supposed to be coming during the revolt. Mark argues that the revolt must happen before Jesus returns; he argues that Christians have misunderstood the signs, and are expecting Jesus' return before it is supposed to happen. In other words, Mark is saying: "Don't disband, yet; wait just a little longer. Jesus will be here!"Mark writes with the premise that you only have to hold your audience till the next chapter.Jon

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Love your enemies!

What anti-revolutionary stand?

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Acts 1:6—11 (NRSV):

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So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?' He replied, 'It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.' When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. While he was going and they were gazing up towards heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. They said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up towards heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.'

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Even to the time of his supposed 'ascension', Jesus' followers still expected him to whoop some Roman ass. And the men in white reassure them that he'll be coming back. You cannot make a case for the resurrection by these means. An actual resurrection is, by its nature, the least likely of any of the possible explanations for why the disciples claimed Jesus had been resurrected. It is thus useless as an historical explanation. Yes. Just look at Paul. Also, here is something of mine from a different thread:

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Jon in Message 12 in Living According to Christ: Is it Reasonable?:

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It is apparent that there can be much debated on the topic of whether or not Jesus' messageand indeed, his entire beliefwas apocalyptic. Excerpts from the earlier writings contained in the New Testament seem to indicate that he felt the end to be near:

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Mark 9:1 (NRSV):

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And he said to them 'Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.'

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Mark 13:24—31 (NRSV):

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'But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see "the Son of Man coming in clouds" with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

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'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

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And even the early followers apparently felt likewise:

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I Cor. 7:25—31 (NRSV):

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Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. I think that, in view of the impending crisis, it is well for you to remain as you are. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

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Yet, similar ideas expressed in later writings soften, or omit these references to the coming end, and occasionally contradict them:

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Matt. 16:28 (NRSV):

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Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

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I Thes. 4:15—5:11 (NRSV):

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For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

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Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters, you do not need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When they say, 'There is peace and security', then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labour pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape! But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then, let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober; for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing.

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Matt. 24:4—34 (NRSV):

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Jesus answered them, 'Beware that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, "I am the Messiah!" and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.

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'Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.

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'So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; someone on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; someone in the field must not turn back to get a coat. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, "Look! Here is the Messiah!" or "There he is!"do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, "Look! He is in the wilderness", do not go out. If they say, "Look! He is in the inner rooms", do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

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'Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven" with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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'From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

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II Peter 3:4—10 (NRSV):

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and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!' They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.

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But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.

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Given this, it seems in the earliest days Christianity was an apocalyptic cult: the founder preached it; the followers believed it. It was only later, when the end began to appear more distant than first thought, that the religion ditched the apocalyptic message. We can see this in the gradual softening of the language used to reference the 'Second Coming'. In Mark, Jesus specifically states that his own disciples will not die before 'the Kingdom of God has come with power'; in Matthew, the references are softened. In one instance, the same passage from Mark is re-rendered to only state that the 'Son of Man' will come 'in his kingdom'. Jesus' mere presence fulfills this, as there is no longer any reference to the coming power of the Kingdom of God. Where the passages from Mark do not present as much trouble for Matthew, he leaves them unchanged; for example, it is much less specific to say that a generation will not pass away rather than to say that no members of a particular group of people will die.

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Paul expresses his belief that the end is near when he describes an 'impending crisis', and states that the 'present form of this world is passing away'. But even this seems shadowed in the reality of the daythat many Christians were dying before the promised return of Christ, as evidenced in, for example, I Thessalonians 4:13—18. As time marches, we see the situation worsen. Folk are no longer simply worried that the dead Christians will not get to see the kingdom, but are worried that the kingdom won't even come: II Peter 3:4. The only reassurance the author can give is to tell his audience that it could be thousands of years... talk about patience!

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All of this seems mismatched and shaky if we don't assume an apocalyptic origin to Christianity; the easiest way to fit everything together is to assume there was an initial feeling by Jesus (or so it is reported) and his followers of the imminence of the end. This belief was later abandoned; the beliefs of Jesus associated with it were softened, altered, reinterpreted (e.g., Luke) or left out in further accounts of his life; and later church teachings adjusted, when it became all too apparent that the Kingdom wasn't going to come any time soon.

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The Jesus movement, like all of the messianic movements, was apocalyptic. If the folk didn't expect an apocalypse, why would they crown someone their messiah?Jon

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Love your enemies!

No; it isn't. We can conclude that an actual resurrection is less likely on the basis of knowing that there are loads of other explanations for the matter that are more likely. We have no evidence of resurrection; we have plenty of evidence of people 'seeing ghosts'. We have no evidence of resurrection; we have plenty of evidence of people making things up. And so the list goes on. Almost every other explanation we can think of is more probable than the explanation that there was an actual resurrection.This is why we do not conclude that there was a resurrection; not because we've discounted the notion without consideration, but because we have considered it and found it lacking. No; it doesn't. It is the least probable of all the explanations, and I'd even say it is less explanatory than many of them as well. I'm still working my way through the Wright link you gave me in the other thread; it takes time to get through those things. Even in that sense it was a failed prediction; the Romans squashed the Jewish rebels like bugs and spent many a generation ruling Judea.It was only technically the end of life under the Romans 'as they knew it'; instead being the beginning of an even more severe Roman presence.Reply to Message 105: That's apocalyptic. This is certainly in line with the message as interpreted by Luke. But is this the same way the message is presented in the other gospels?JonEdited by Jon, : add further reply

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Love your enemies!

Again, 'people who believed' it is a more likely explanation than saying that it actually happened. Star Trek. Well, that is part of what I was working on in the other thread. The movement, unlike other failed messianic movements, did not stay broken for long. I don't think that the resurrection was fabricated from thin air, though I do acknowledge that from-thin-air fabrication is a more likely explanation than saying that there was an actual resurrection. Where did he predict this? I don't see him warning anyone against fighting in order to avoid the counter wrath of Rome. It seems you've combined traditions from a couple of different gospels, here. Would you mind separating them out and showing how each gospel writer explained the idea that the 'temple was no longer a place of bricks and stones but was in the hearts of His image bearing followers'?Jon

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Love your enemies!

Well, that gave me a laugh. However, 'Star Trek' was meant to be a reply only to your request for evidence of people making things up.We have loads of evidence of people making things up, from journeys through the final frontier to magical creatures living out their days in some goofy placed called 'Middle Earth'.We have no evidence of anyone ever coming back from the dead.That makes an actual resurrection less likely than pretty much any other explanation, including the explanation that it was all made up. Isn't this prayer proof enough of the apocalyptic attitude of Jesus? If he taught his disciples to pray for the kingdom to come, what else can we think of him but that he was encouraging them to get ready for the end?Jon

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Love your enemies!

You're still missing my point. I am not accusing anyone of making anything up; nor am I flat-out denying the resurrection (though, on a personal side note, I am rather convinced it never happened). What I am saying is that there are many things more probable than a resurrection that could explain the accounts of a resurrected Jesus.Historians work with probabilities. So the least probable explanations never stand a chance. In the New Testament there are many accounts of others being brought back from the dead; same with the Old. If it is the Christian belief that this only happened once, then Christians need to reexamine their holy books. Well of course not. The hope is that God open the curtain and reveal (apocalypse) Himself and His divine plan. That covers the 'will' part; but what about the 'kingdom' part?Jon

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Love your enemies!