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Author | Topic: Jesus The false prophet | |||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
CS writes: This might be a stupid question, but did Jesus ever consider himself a "prophet"? From all that I've read I would say absolutely. That does not of course preclude Him being Messiah or from the idea that through Him God was re-visiting His people. Just so we're talking about the same thing by the way, this is from wiki.
quote: I think that it is often assumed that a prophecy predicts the future but that seems to me to be seldom the case. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
There is this from Matthew 13 with parallel stories in th eother gospels.
quote: He never corrected anyone when they referred to Him as a prophet. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
frako writes: 1. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. I think that you have a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant by the "Kingdom of God". When the Jews heard that term they would understand that God was going to empower them to overpower their enemies and return Israel to them, under Jewish power with Yahweh or His representative as King. Jesus had several things to say about that. First off He was saying that the military route was not the way to go - love your enemy - turn the other cheek - etc. He was establishing the "Kingdom of God" but it wasn’t just for Israel but for the world. It would be a Kingdom without geographical boundaries, where Jesus the servant king would be king and where its citizens would be those who signed on to carry the father's message of truth, love, peace, justice, kindness, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. He wasn't prophesying about something that was going to happen in the future, he was prophesying about what was happening then - in the present. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
frako writes: So where is this kingdom of god whiteout borders ?? Or is there any evidence of it ever existing???What about when he says the kinghdom of god will come with power?? Essentially it's his world wide church, empowered by His Holy Spirit.
frako writes: That sounds like he is going to march on earth whit an army of angels to kill off the infidels and leave only the mindless slaves who worship him whiteout question. I think that I answered this in my last post. Here it is again.
GDR writes: Jesus had several things to say about that. First off He was saying that the military route was not the way to go - love your enemy - turn the other cheek - etc. He was establishing the "Kingdom of God" but it wasn’t just for Israel but for the world. It would be a Kingdom without geographical boundaries, where Jesus the servant king would be king and where its citizens would be those who signed on to carry the father's message of truth, love, peace, justice, kindness, mercy, forgiveness etc to the world. Jesus brought a new way to have power and rule. His way of ruling is to serve. His route to power is love. However, just as the Hebrews more often than not messed it up in the time of the OT, the church more often than not messes it up today. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ICANT writes: You get an 'F' in theology. Just a thought. Isn't this the kinda of thing that you complain about the scientific atheists doing. When you make assertians in their field you claim foul when they use condescending language. OK, theology is more your area than it is frako's and when he asserts something you use the same kind of condescending language that gets used against you in the scientific area. Frako doesn't claim to be any kind of expert in theology and for that matter is dealing, very well actually, in a second language. Don't mean to try and be clever but it's something to maybe think about.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
frako writes: The power of love and servitude wasent quite felt by other religions at the time of the curch becoming the state religion of Rome almost immediately the church started to hunt down pagan worshipers. So no power of love for the church to be the one to come with power. I think I already made the point that church history has been full of inconsistencies and self serving human attitudes. At the same time though, the church has been a force for good in many many cases. Just as the OT Hebrews allowed themselves to be heavily influenced by their pagan neighbours, the church from the time of Jesus on, including the disciples themselves, keeps trying to make God over into their image.
frako writes: And as i mentioned the church was formed to late to account for the many shall not taste death part. Not at all, the first church was in a sense Jesus and His disciples, but in another sense the first church would be when the disciples were empowered by the Holy Spirit. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
frako writes: so basically what Jesus meant to say was some of you will become "super-heroes" in service of god before you die? No, just that they would be empowered to serve others.
frako writes: Or the kingdom of god has already come you just dont know it yet and NONE of you will taste death before the kingdom comes because i am that kingdom, and i am already here. No, it was that Jesus mission was essentially a "Kingdom of God" movement. He fulfilled the Hebrew scriptures but not in the way His contemporaries anticipated. In some ways it was even a political movement with Jesus as the founder if you want to look at it that way. It was of course more than that though.
frako writes: Would it not be simpler to take the prophecy literally, it says some of you will not die before my father comes and rules the earth. The disciples point is that had happened. The point at the time was very political, because essentially the disciples, after the resurrection were saying that Jesus is King which meant Caesar wasn't. But again rule under Caesar is all about power and control, whereas rule under Jesus is all about love and service. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
frako writes: Can you point out the kingdom of love and service to me at anytime in history?? Our little church sends thousands of dollars monthly to support a home in Kampala that is for young women who otherwise would be living in the streets. They get a home and education. I support a man who has started farming co-operative in the Sudan that has grown from a couple of used tractors into a very large farm. He has risked his life in that war torn country. How about Martin Luther KIng, Wilberforce or Mother Theresa. Look at what Nelson Mandela did in South Africa with his non-violence and with his "Truth and Reconciliation" initiative.
frako writes: Never knew you need to be empowered by the holy spirit to do so I have never claimed that only Christians are capable of altruistic behaviour. I've said this before but I'll repeat it. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily make me kinder than my atheistic or Muslim next door neighbour, but it should make me kinder than I had been before I was a Christian. Here is a quote from Matthew 9:
quote: I think you might reconsider your idea about what it means to be a prophet. This is from the on-line dictionary.
quote: It isn't about predicting the future, and in the case that you brought up in the OP Jesus was talking about something that was starting then and would continue. He wasn’t predicting the future. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
purpledawn writes: The other two synoptics said the kingdom of God. Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven and His Kingdom are all the same thing. Matthew used "Kingdom of Heaven" as a more respectful, (for Mattew anyway), way of saying Kingdom of God as many Jews wouldn't say the name of Yahweh.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Jon writes: Absolutely not. We see no such thing; no such thing exists; there is no Jesus in the OT. I think you're wrong in this. There is a narrative throughout the OT that Jahweh would return to redeem His people. In saying that though, there is no doubt that the pre-Jesus Jews had varying ideas of how that would look and that very few if anyone thought it would look like it did when it finally happened in Jesus. There are however some clues. One would be the "Son of Man' reference in Daniel 7:
quote: Another one that is less cryptic is in Isaiah 42.
quote: Or the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:
quote: OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
HI Eric
Both Matthew 16 and 24 have to be read in the context of time and place. Mathhew 16 is as has been said is Jesus establishing the "Kindom of God", or as Matthew calls it "The Kingdom of Heaven" as the new Israel. It wasn't about a plot of land in the Middle East, it was now for the whole world which even goes back to the promise to Abraham. Mathhew 24 doesn't have anything to do with end times either. It has to do with Jesus' political message. He was essentially saying that if you keep on poking a stick in the eyes of the Romans that they will do what they always do. He was saying that the way you deal with the Romans is essentially to love your enemies as the war isn't against flesh and blood but against evil itself. He said that if the Jews kept on their revolutionary path that Jerusalem and the Temple itself would be destroyed. It wasn't so much a supernatural prediction as a practical one. As was we all know by the way, He was right. Both the Temple and Jerusalem were laid to waste by 70 AD. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Hi Eric
Part of the problem is that you are insisting on reading these texts in the same manner that a Christian fundamentalist would. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews and we have to understand it in that context.
nERICtic writes: In chapter 24, Jesus is asked by his disciples when is the end of the age. Absolutely, but what age were they referring to? In the mind of most Jews they were still in exile. Sure they were back on the land but they were occupied by the Romans who had installed a brutish turncoat to do Rome's bidding and to quell dissension and rebellion. The disciples were asking; when is this age of exile going to end? When will Yahweh return in power, kick the Romans out, rebuild the Temple and be their king.
hERICtic writes: In chapter 13, Jesus refers to the end of the age when the angels will come and the final judgement. I don't know what you are referring to here. The whole chapter is Jesus explaining, mostly by parable, about the "Kingdom of Heaven" that He is inaugurating.
hERICtic writes: Chapter 25 again speaks of the final judgement, when angels will arrive and seperate those who are saved and unsaved. Fine but that isn't the same discussion he is having in Chap 24. In 25 He is essentially saying that at the end of time people will be divided into two groups: those that hold in their hearts selfish love and those that hold in their hearts unselfish love.
hERICtic writes: You claim it refers to the Romans. Did these occur: Mattew 24: 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Do you still think it has nothing to do with the end times? It has nothing to do with what will happen at the end of time. Verse 29 which you quoted above refers back to Isaiah 13.
quote: It then goes on in Isaiah 13 with the following which makes it very clear that this is an earthly event.
quote: This has to be understood in the language of the times. When we talk about the fall of the Roman empire we don't mean that it literally fell from a great height. This language used by the people of that day refers to huge social and political unrest along with great conflict.
quoted by hERICtic writes: 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. This quote is referring back to the following passage from Daniel 7.
quote: This is about the vindication of the crucified Christ. That is about a permanent kingdom that is very much rooted in this world that we live in now and that they lived in then. Jesus essentially made three claims about the future in this. Firstly He claimed that the Father would raise him up, which of course happened with His resurrection and ascension. Secondly He said that if they carried on in their rebellion, Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed which of course happened. Thirdly that the message of His victory over death and HIs message of truth, love, mercy and forgivenesswould go out to the world which also happened. In one sense though there is an end times theology that rolls along underneath all of this. Jesus inaugurated an eternal kingdom that began through his life, death, resurrection, ascension and empowered with His Holy Spirit. In that sense we have been in the end times ever since but as Jesus made clear no one knows the hour or the minute, or for that matter how it will happen. This place might go on like this for another million years or more. Personally I hope so. In the meantime we all have a job to do. As Christians we are to help people to understand the story of God as revealed through Jesus, but all of us as humans, regardless of our beliefs are assigned the job of being good stewards of our planet and all life on it, in preparation for the time when time as we know it ends and a great re-creation, whatever that looks like, begins. Jesus was anything but a false prophet. A prophet isn't one who accurately and supernaturally predicts the future, (although in some cases in the OT that was a part of it), but one who accurately reveals the nature of God and His desires for us to the world.
hERICtic writes: Not hard to be correct when the writings occured AFTER the event! That is very much an open question. Personally I think it is unlikely that is the case. If it had been written after the fact you would think they would have been more accurate. As He says in Matthew 24 :2
quote: We know that at least a small part was left standing. If it had been written after 70 AD it is unlikely that they would record something that wasn't obviously correct. Jesus was essentially using a bit of hyperbole in making the point that the Romans were thoroughly destructive. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
hERICtic writes: I agree. To a point. Its not what the disciples were expecting thats the issue, its what Jesus claims. What is to occur at the end of this age, thats the question? That is "A" question but it isn't "THE" question that is being dealt with in these passages. The Christian narratives are largely all about return from exile. The disciples viewed that as being redeemed from exile under the Romans. Jesus understood that and made the point that the revolutionary route would only lead to ruin, which in the end it did.
hERICtic writes: Before I address the rest of your post, let me ask you this. In reference to Matthew 25: 31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. What does it mean that he will come in his glory, with his angels, sitting on his throne? Does this refer to the return of Jesus? I should at some point state in here that I am not a theologian and I don't want you to think, that I think that what I'm saying is absolutely the final answer to all of this. I have read a lot of literature on the subject and I am only expressing my views on what this means. I see this passage as talking about the world in exile. Sure there is so much of this world that is good and beautiful, but we are still in a world that suffers under tyranny and oppression. We live in a world that is still by and large obsessed with money and power. In the grand narrative, at the end of the age, at the end of time as we know it, there will be justice. I think that this is an example of Hebrew apocalyptic writing. Jesus will come in glory, but what does it mean by glory. Glory does not mean power as we normally think of it. Jesus' glory is His love, kindness, justice, humility, forgiveness etc. This is the Messiah, the King who insisted on washing His disciple’s feet. It is the Messiah that rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. It is the Messiah who conquered death, not by a show of power but through humble submission to His enemies. So yes, I do think that this is an end times view of things which gives the basis on which the world is to be judged. Do we love and serve our neighbour, or do we love and serve our self? Like it says in Isaiah, the lion will eat straw and the wolf will lie down with the lamb. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Hi Eric
hERICtic writes: Do you agree Jesus is speaking of his return and the judgement of mankind? Yes. I would add though that what His return will look like is an unknown. The whole thing about returning on a cloud etc is once again Jewish apocalyptic writing. A recent front page headline in Scientific American was this: "Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter - An Entire Universe May be Woven Silently With Our Own". The writer obviously had something different that this in mind, but that is how I see Heaven - God's dimension or universe which is where Jesus reigns from. It is all around us but unperceived. So in that sense Jesus has never actually left. However the Bible talks about the "New Heavens and New Earth". Paul writes this in his letter to the Ephesians:
quote: If you like it is also talked about in Isaiah 65 & 66 as well as Revelation 21. We will have resurrected bodies living in a recreated Heaven and Earth, and where I'm going to all the lectures to finally get my head around all of this. The idea of coming on clouds etc is once again Jewish writing which refers back to Daniel 7 for its inspiration. Who knows what it will look like, whether there will be some cataclysmic event or just a silent recreation of all things. Beats me, and although it's of interest it doesn't really matter anyway. None of us have any control over it. All we can control is our own lives so I don't see a lot of point in getting to wound up about it. I have to run but I’ll get back to your second question later. Cheers Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
hERICtic writes: Luke 21 also makes it quite clear, by coming in his glory, it refers to his return. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. This is obviously not just refering to those "attributes", but an arrival. Once again it is my contention that this isn't about what happens at the end of time but about Jesus' political message and what will happen if they don't turn from their violent revolutionary ways. Let's look at the verse that you quoted in context with your verse being the last one.
quote: We can see that he is referring to earthly armies. There would also be no point in fleeing to the mountains if time was coming to an end, but there would be if you were trying to escape Roman soldiers. Again let's go back to Daniel 7 to which Jesus was referring.
quote: This then is referring to the kingdom that we talked about in this thread. Jesus was establishing His kingdom here on Earth, a kingdom that He intends to be characterized by its love, peace, truth, forgiveness, mercy, kindness etc. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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