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Author Topic:   Jesus The false prophet
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 1 of 213 (619256)
06-09-2011 8:11 AM


The bible tells you to test prophets
King James Bible
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Deuteronomy 18:21-22:
"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
Mark 9:1
King James Version
1. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
or Matthew 16:28, or Luke 9:27
he says basically the same thing
He fails the test: All of the people he was talking too are dead and no kingdom of god in sight.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 06-09-2011 11:32 AM frako has replied
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 06-09-2011 1:51 PM frako has replied
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2011 5:19 PM frako has replied
 Message 38 by Chuck77, posted 06-10-2011 4:35 AM frako has replied
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 06-10-2011 9:19 PM frako has replied
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 213 (619257)
06-09-2011 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
06-09-2011 8:11 AM


Please provide the scripture numbers for what Jesus supposedly said.
Thanks
AdminPD

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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 3 of 213 (619259)
06-09-2011 10:41 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Jesus The false prophet thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 213 (619266)
06-09-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
06-09-2011 8:11 AM


quote:
Deuteronomy 18:21-22:
"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
I would argue that Jesus didn't claim to be speaking in the name of Yhvh. He didn't say these words were from Yhvh.
Mark 9:1
And he said unto them Verily I say unto you That there be some of them that stand here which shall not taste of death till __ they have seen the kingdom of God come with power
The prophets of the OT were very clear when they were presenting a message from Yhvh.
Jeremiah 38:17
Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah Thus saith the LORD the God of hosts the God of Israel If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes then thy soul shall live and this city shall not be burned with fire and thou shalt live and thine house
Show me that the author of Mark, Matthew, or Luke presented Jesus as speaking those words for God.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 213 (619273)
06-09-2011 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
06-09-2011 10:51 AM


This might be a stupid question, but did Jesus ever consider himself a "prophet"?

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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 6 of 213 (619277)
06-09-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
06-09-2011 10:51 AM


I would argue that Jesus didn't claim to be speaking in the name of Yhvh. He didn't say these words were from Yhvh.
Well then that settles the matter then he did not speak for god so he is not the son of god.
Or are you implying that in this instance he was not speaking for GOD but just throwing out lies to see if anyone would catch them. Like on his off time he was a liar but when god relay spoke to him then he would utter the word The LORD said.....

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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 7 of 213 (619279)
06-09-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
06-09-2011 11:09 AM


Well if one takes in to account everything the bible says about him he would have had to consider himself a prophet, miracle worker, son of god or something of the like.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 8 of 213 (619284)
06-09-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
06-09-2011 11:09 AM


CS writes:
This might be a stupid question, but did Jesus ever consider himself a "prophet"?
From all that I've read I would say absolutely. That does not of course preclude Him being Messiah or from the idea that through Him God was re-visiting His people.
Just so we're talking about the same thing by the way, this is from wiki.
quote:
In religion, a prophet is an individual who is claimed to have been contacted by the supernatural or the divine, and serves as an intermediary with humanity, delivering this newfound knowledge from the supernatural entity to other people. The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy.
I think that it is often assumed that a prophecy predicts the future but that seems to me to be seldom the case.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 213 (619288)
06-09-2011 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
06-09-2011 8:11 AM


frako writes:
Mark 9:1
King James Version
1. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
For the Mark 9:1 quote, I think a reasonable interpretation is that Jesus was referring to the Transfiguration described in 9:2-7.
In other words, Peter, John, and James got a sneak peek while they were still alive. For more than the sneak peak, including the other predictions, no time frame is given.
A similar argument can be made for Matthew 16:28 and possibly even Luke 9:27. I think only those who are spoiling for a fight would have much of a problem with these verses.
IMO, Matthew 24:27-34 is a much more problematic scripture.

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 Message 1 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 8:11 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 10 of 213 (619293)
06-09-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
06-09-2011 11:32 AM


Good point, another propehcy that has failed the dheutoromy test,
As saying that mine refers to a sneek peek those guys get that is a long shot.
Why dint he just say when we get on top of that moutin il give you a sneak preview of whats going to happen a gazillion years after i die.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 213 (619295)
06-09-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
06-09-2011 11:25 AM


From all that I've read I would say absolutely.
Did he ever explicitly refer to himself as a prophet? I'm thinking no.
That does not of course preclude Him being Messiah or from the idea that through Him God was re-visiting His people.
Yeah, but I'm thinking that if he really was god, then it makes sense that he wasn't really a prophet. Ya know what I mean?
Point getting to, the Duet test doesn't really apply...
quote:
In religion, a prophet is an individual who is claimed to have been contacted by the supernatural or the divine, and serves as an intermediary with humanity, delivering this newfound knowledge from the supernatural entity to other people. The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy.
I think that it is often assumed that a prophecy predicts the future but that seems to me to be seldom the case.
No doubt, Jesus would fit that definition and other people should definately consider him a prophet, but I'm wondering if a case could be made that he was really a prophet and if he didn't ever actually consider himself one.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 12 of 213 (619302)
06-09-2011 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
06-09-2011 11:46 AM


There is this from Matthew 13 with parallel stories in th eother gospels.
quote:
53 1When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there. 54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that 4they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers ? 55 "Is not this the carpenter's son ? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas ? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things ?" 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household." 58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.
He never corrected anyone when they referred to Him as a prophet.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 213 (619304)
06-09-2011 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by frako
06-09-2011 11:39 AM


frako writes:
As saying that mine refers to a sneek peek those guys get that is a long shot.
How can you assess the odds?
Why dint he just say when we get on top of that moutin il give you a sneak preview of whats going to happen a gazillion years after i die.
Does not seem any more cryptic than any other Bible prophecy.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 213 (619308)
06-09-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
06-09-2011 11:15 AM


False Truths
Well then that settles the matter then he did not speak for god so he is not the son of god.
That doesn't follow. Many sons do not speak for their fathers; that doesn't terminate their familial ties.
Or are you implying that in this instance he was not speaking for GOD but just throwing out lies to see if anyone would catch them.
I don't think there is any lying involved. Even if Jesus actually said these things, he wasn't lying; he was just wrong. There's a difference.
Like on his off time he was a liar but when god relay spoke to him then he would utter the word The LORD said.....
Again, why are you assuming there is lying involved? Can't someone simply be wrong without being a liar?
Jon

Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 213 (619313)
06-09-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
06-09-2011 12:17 PM


Re: False Truths
Jon writes:
I don't think there is any lying involved. Even if Jesus actually said these things, he wasn't lying; he was just wrong. There's a difference.
I don't think Harold Camping was lying about the world ending last month. But he was still a false prophet as defined in Deuteronomy, because his prediction was bogus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 06-09-2011 12:17 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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