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Author
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Topic: Jesus The false prophet
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 4 of 213 (619266)
06-09-2011 10:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by frako
06-09-2011 8:11 AM
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quote:
Deuteronomy 18:21-22: "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
I would argue that Jesus didn't claim to be speaking in the name of Yhvh. He didn't say these words were from Yhvh.
Mark 9:1
And he said unto them Verily I say unto you That there be some of them that stand here which shall not taste of death till __ they have seen the kingdom of God come with power The prophets of the OT were very clear when they were presenting a message from Yhvh.
Jeremiah 38:17
Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah Thus saith the LORD the God of hosts the God of Israel If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes then thy soul shall live and this city shall not be burned with fire and thou shalt live and thine house Show me that the author of Mark, Matthew, or Luke presented Jesus as speaking those words for God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 8:11 AM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-09-2011 11:09 AM | | purpledawn has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 6 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 11:15 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 19 of 213 (619357)
06-09-2011 3:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by frako
06-09-2011 11:15 AM
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False Prophet
quote:
Well then that settles the matter then he did not speak for god so he is not the son of god. Or are you implying that in this instance he was not speaking for GOD but just throwing out lies to see if anyone would catch them. Like on his off time he was a liar but when god relay spoke to him then he would utter the word The LORD said.....
That was rather disingenuous. Your position in the OP is that Jesus was a false prophet, not that he wasn't the son of God. Only when a prophet claims to speak for God does the test kick in. I gave you an example in Message 4. Just because a prophet is talking doesn't mean everything out of his mouth is a message from God. Also if you notice, Deuteronomy 18:22 doesn't say the prophet is false. It says he spoke presumptuously. Don't be afraid of him. Even in Deuteronomy 13 we see that the prophet's words may come true, but if he leads the people to other gods, the prophet must be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5) In the fictional book of Jonah we see that God can also change his mind depending on what the circumstances. (Jonah 3) So Johan spoke correctly, but the people repented and God decided not to destroy them. Unlike the prophets of the OT, Jesus didn't write any books. So as I asked you before, did the author tell us that Jesus was presenting a message from God? As someone else pointed out, being wrong and lying are two different things. In Chapter 13 of the Book of Mark the author has Jesus tell Peter, James, John and Andrew that the day and hour are unknown.
Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Whether the statement is correct or not probably depends on where one feels the kingdom of God is. Is it external or internal?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 11:15 AM | | frako has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 20 of 213 (619362)
06-09-2011 3:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by frako
06-09-2011 1:28 PM
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Re: False Truths
quote:
If in fact it turns out that the company does not go borke and it lasts for 2000 years i must have lied about the state of the company, and as it turned out i had no buisnes saying that the company is borke cause its my fathers company, and he dint tell me to say anything about the company to the workers.
You may have lied and you may not have lied. You may just have been wrong or your father changed his mind and didn't fill you in on it. There are more options than just lying.
quote:
And still he made a claim that did not come to pass so he is a false prophet like good ol deutoromy says
Only if he claimed the message was from God. You haven't shown evidence that he claimed he was presenting a message from God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 1:28 PM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 4:19 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 23 of 213 (619397)
06-09-2011 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by frako
06-09-2011 4:19 PM
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Re: False Truths
quote:
Jesus the son of god the prophet of god and god himself (all at the same time), forgot to mention to his apostles:" the last thing i have just said, is not from gods mouth(my mouth) nor was i speaking to you as a prophet i was talking to you as a man, in truth i in my godly form have blocked any knowledge of the time i come to rule this world from my fleshy form and i in my godly form have not convaied any such knowledge to my fleshy prophet form i was only speaking to you in my normal fleshy form so you can take it as a wild guess. Just so there are no misunderstandings in the future I can see why this bit would be skipped from the bible
Please show evidence from the Bible to support your conclusions. Show me that the synoptic authors presented Jesus as God. Show me that the apostles thought Jesus was God in the synoptics. Just because you don't understand the stories of the Bible doesn't mean anything was skipped.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 4:19 PM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 5:16 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 33 of 213 (619438)
06-09-2011 7:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by frako
06-09-2011 5:16 PM
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Synoptics
The book of John is not one of the synoptics and was a much later writing. The book of John does not have that speech by Jesus, so it really doesn't contribute to the discussion. The Bible has many authors and they all don't necessarily have the same audience or purpose. Again I ask: Show me that the synoptic authors presented Jesus as God. Show me that the apostles thought Jesus was God in the synoptics. You still haven't shown me that Jesus claimed to be presenting a message from God. FYI
Luke 17:20-21
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 5:16 PM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 34 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 7:22 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 42 of 213 (619511)
06-10-2011 6:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by frako
06-09-2011 7:22 PM
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Re: Synoptics
quote:
So the book of John is wrong and Jesus is not god it do-sent matter what the apostles believed Jesus was. If Jesus is god then he should have known that god was not coming before some taste death. Unless something like my previous reply happened.
Address my argument. This is Bible Study. If you want to say Jesus is God then your claim that Jesus is a false prophet is still wrong. Deuteronomy is a rule from God for men who claim to speak for God, it does not apply to God. As I showed in Luke the Kingdom of God is considered within the person not external. In Acts 2 we see the internal kingdom coming with power. So this author supports the prediction.
quote:
And if he was considered a prophet any words of prophecy would be taken as that they are coming directly from god. Deuthoromy says it clearly if the prophecy does not come true do not fear the prophet because he does not speak for god. And if he does not speak for god he is no prophet and what else that he said was also not spoken for god but from his own mouth and his own ideas.
Show me support that anything a prophet speaks concerning the future is considered to be from God whether the prophet claims it is from God or not. Just because you believe that doesn't make it so. Deuteronomy says the prophet spoke presumptuously, not that the prophet was a false prophet. The prophet just overstepped his authority. Only when the prophet tries to lead God's people to other gods is he then a false prophet.
Jeremiah 28:15-16 Then the prophet Jeremiah said to Hananiah the prophet, "Listen, Hananiah! The LORD has not sent you, yet you have persuaded this nation to trust in lies. Therefore, this is what the LORD says: 'I am about to remove you from the face of the earth. This very year you are going to die, because you have preached rebellion against the LORD.'" Deuteronomy doesn't support your contention that Jesus was a false prophet. The book of John does not support your contention that Jesus was a false prophet. The book of Acts, which is written by the same author as Luke, supports what Jesus said since it considers the kingdom to be within a person.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by frako, posted 06-09-2011 7:22 PM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by frako, posted 06-10-2011 7:06 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 44 of 213 (619516)
06-10-2011 7:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 43 by frako
06-10-2011 7:06 AM
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Contention Failed
quote:
Do you know how silly this sounds im telling you the end of days its coming but i dint here this form god its my wild guess. If i heare anything about the subject form god i will add the phrase god says next time.
IOW, you have no support for your position. I've shown you that the author of Luke tells us that the kingdom of god is within us and people experienced that in the book of Acts. People of the time understood it whether you do or not.
quote:
How do you know he dint do just that you have the failed prophecy and all of a sudden a new god or new part of god is being worshiped Jesus? You could have been led astray and not even know it.
All we have is what is written. If you have evidence outside the Bible, then please show it. My guess is that you don't. You're simply avoiding the argument. So far you haven't supported your contention that Jesus is a false prophet.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by frako, posted 06-10-2011 7:06 AM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by frako, posted 06-10-2011 7:52 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 46 of 213 (619520)
06-10-2011 8:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 45 by frako
06-10-2011 7:52 AM
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Re: Contention Failed
You can't argue a book if you haven't read it. You're just flailing. Good day.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by frako, posted 06-10-2011 7:52 AM | | frako has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 60 of 213 (619678)
06-11-2011 7:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 53 by hERICtic
06-10-2011 8:48 PM
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Which Author?
The author of Matthew is the only one that said the son of man would come in his kingdom. The other two synoptics said the kingdom of God. Since Matthew and Luke pulled from Mark, it is usually better to argue what Mark presented. It is believed to be written closer to 70 AD than the other two. The author of Mark also presented Jesus as a mortal, not divine. Now Jesus can only be considered a false prophet if he actually claimed that the message was from God and then attempted to lead his followers to other gods. I've also shown that God can change his mind even when he has sent a prophet with a message. A prediction that doesn't come about doesn't automatically mean Jesus was a false prophet. The rules of condemning false prophets and God's past behavior give legitimate support for Jesus not being a false prophet. You would need to show that Jesus claimed the message was from God or that Jesus tried to have his followers follow other gods. Edited by purpledawn, : ID
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2011 8:48 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by GDR, posted 06-11-2011 10:54 AM | | purpledawn has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 67 by hERICtic, posted 06-11-2011 7:09 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 71 of 213 (619757)
06-12-2011 4:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 67 by hERICtic
06-11-2011 7:09 PM
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Re: Which Author?
quote:
Why is it better? The discussion (at least when I joined in) was Matthew 16. ICANT focused on that lone verse and took the stance that it was not in error. I simply pointed out that it was. Jesus predicted the end times during his disciples lifetime. Just because Matthew "copied" from Mark does not mean he shares the exact same ideas and theology.
I explained why IMO it is better. It is believed to be written closer to 70 AD than the other two. The author of Mark also presented Jesus as a mortal, not divine. As for Matthew 16, ICANT didn't focus on that verse in the message you responded to. He spoke of it in Message 51. Remember, this is Bible Study, not Accuracy and Inerrancy. ICANT gave a very nice reasoning of what the authors have Jesus predicting.
quote:
I think we're talking about semantics here. Jesus most certainly went around predicting when the end times were to occur...and he was wrong. I understand what you're saying. I was not disputing the "defintion" of what a prophet is according to the Bible, but ICANTs stance on Matthew 16.
It is about what constitutes a false prophet, not a prophet. IMO, per Deuteronomy, Jesus doesn't qualify as a false prophet even if one feels that what he predicted didn't come to pass. As we see in the OT, God can also change his mind after he's given a prophet a message and not make it come to pass. That doesn't make one a false prophet either. So even if one does feel that the prediction was from God and it didn't come to pass, one would also need to show that God didn't change his mind.
quote:
1) Most Christians believe he was god himself. I would say an all knowing being who cannot predict his own end times...most certainly means he is a false prophet.
It's irrelevant what Christians believe. This is about what is written. As I said before, if one tries to argue that Jesus is God, then again he is not a false prophet; he's a god. Prophets were mortals.
quote:
2) Since Jesus was not god though, but divine, sent by god while claiming that his message is FROM god...I would say thats also a good indictater that he is a false prophet.
Do the synoptics claim that all things spoken by Jesus were a direct message from God? The message in Matthew is different than Mark and Luke.
Matthew 16:28
...till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 12:28 implies the kingdom isn't strictly a physical kingdom.
quote:
Well, showing Jesus claiming that his message was from god is easy, its in the gospels. As for showing Jesus trying to have his followers follow another god...well, again, semantics. Obviously the god Jesus was preaching was not the Jewish version.
Show me that Jesus claimed that the prediction he spoke was from God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by hERICtic, posted 06-11-2011 7:09 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 76 by hERICtic, posted 06-12-2011 8:20 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 78 of 213 (619778)
06-12-2011 9:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 76 by hERICtic
06-12-2011 8:20 AM
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The Book or Reality
quote:
To me this would cover Jesus. He claimed to be sent by god, with the message of god. His predictions of the end times were wrong.
Jesus didn't leave any writings. Jeremiah spoke of the people in his time. If one is going to deem Jesus a false prophet because of what didn't happen in reality, then he can only be held accountable for what he actually said in reality. The earliest manuscripts of Mark end after the crucifixion. At most we can speculate that the author of Mark expected the end of the age to be upon them given the turmoil of the times. The author was wrong. We see in the later writing of Luke that the author fixed the kingdom issue by making the kingdom internal. Odds are no real person actually made that prediction. The book doesn't give enough information to convict the Jesus presented in the NT of being a false prophet. ABE: Honey, if you don't want to discuss Mark then don't. Not a biggy. I feel Matthew may have been written as a satire. Edited by purpledawn, : Original msg changed while typing.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by hERICtic, posted 06-12-2011 8:20 AM | | hERICtic has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 82 by frako, posted 06-12-2011 11:19 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 83 of 213 (619792)
06-12-2011 12:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by frako
06-12-2011 11:19 AM
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Re: The Book or Reality
quote:
Or is timothy wrong too?
The unknown writer of Timothy was referring to the OT writings. The Christian writings weren't considered on par with the OT yet. Inspiration is not dictation.
quote:
So why believe anything written about Jesus if the authors where wrong once, could they have not been wrong more then once? Maby about the whole Jesus affair, that Jesus was not the messiahs but anti messiahs who turned the world from god and got them to worship him, and a strange fictional all loving god where just a few chapters ago all he talks about is blood and death??
The topic isn't about what to believe.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by frako, posted 06-12-2011 11:19 AM | | frako has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 93 of 213 (619913)
06-13-2011 8:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 92 by hERICtic
06-13-2011 6:53 AM
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Apocalyptic Literature
Apocalyptic literature is very symbolic as is Prophetic language.
apocalyptic literature, literary genre that foretells supernaturally inspired cataclysmic events that will transpire at the end of the world. A product of the Judeo-Christian tradition, apocalyptic literature is characteristically pseudonymous; it takes narrative form, employs esoteric language, expresses a pessimistic view of the present, and treats the final events as imminent. Prophetic Symbols And Apocalyptic Language MATTHEW 24:29-35 "...The stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Obviously, Gods heavenly realm was not to pass away. This HEAVEN and this EARTH were symbols within this great prophecy. They stood for the Jewish national/religious government and the peoples of the Jewish nation that stood in the way of the Church. The STARS that fall from HEAVEN are symbolic of the leaders and high priests of that decayed nation. Their powers were "shaken" indeed, by the appearance of the power of God, the SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN, in the form of the Roman army. That great destroying force appeared in HEAVEN, that is, God brought its might to bear directly against the Jewish national powers in Jerusalem. These men were the HEAVENS symbolized here. HEAVEN and EARTH passed away in great violence in AD. 70. We need to get away from a planetary view of judgment. Understand what the author's audience was hearing and experiencing. After the destruction of the temple the Christians were separated from Judaism and became predominantly Gentile. These aren't historical documents. They are creative writings with a message for their audience. To attempt at understanding the message we have to understand the message in its time and the methods of the time used to present the message. It takes a lot more work to understand or trying to understand symbolic language. Since so much time has lapsed, it's hard to say if we understand the symbols correctly. There really isn't enough information to say without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was a false prophet.
In religion, a false prophet is one who falsely claims the gift of prophecy, or who uses that gift for evil ends. Often, someone who is considered a "true prophet" by some people is simultaneously considered a "false prophet" by others.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by hERICtic, posted 06-13-2011 6:53 AM | | hERICtic has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 115 of 213 (620403)
06-16-2011 8:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 111 by hERICtic
06-15-2011 8:15 PM
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Not A False Prophet
GDR isn't tap dancing around the context. The Bible isn't a historical document. There are many styles of writing and apocalyptic language is very symbolic. This is a Bible Study forum, not accuracy and inerrancy. Understand what was going on when these gospels were written and what their audiences would have understood. Jewish-Roman Wars Also do a little research on apocalyptic language instead of doubting GDR. Prophecies are creative in their presentation. I provided links earlier to help. Message 93 Clouds seem to imply spiritual presence or power more than physical appearance.
Prophetic Apocalyptic LanguageLet us now go back to that prophetic, apocalyptic language that Jesus used to describe exactly what would happen immediately after the great tribulation of Mt. 24:21. In vss. 29-31, He said: "...the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." In examining a number of "old testament" prophecies, we learned that the use of expressions involving the sun and moon not giving their light, and the stars either falling or not giving their light, were symbolic judgment prophecies, concerning the fall or collapse of kingdoms, governments, and authorities. Then we also found that the phrase coming on the clouds was also used frequently as a symbol or sign. For example, the picture of God coming in judgment on Egypt, "riding on a swift cloud" in Is. 19:1, or when He came in judgment on Nineveh in Nah. 1:3, with the clouds being the dust under His feet, or as David said in Psa. 104:3, "He makes the clouds His chariot." Then there was the cloud upon the mercy seat atop the ark of the covenant, which symbolized the very presence of God. So, it seems very clear that clouds were commonly used to symbolize God's presence in judgment on all His enemies. The author of Matthew relied heavily on the OT and wrote after 70 CE. He already knew what had happened and used the language of the OT to describe it. Really to support your position you would need to show evidence that it wasn't written in apocalyptic language. According to the gospels Jesus was guilty of sedition or blasphemy for claiming to be the king of the Jews.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by hERICtic, posted 06-15-2011 8:15 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 116 by hERICtic, posted 06-17-2011 7:31 PM | | purpledawn has replied | | | Message 121 by hERICtic, posted 06-18-2011 6:32 AM | | purpledawn has seen this message but not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 122 of 213 (620603)
06-18-2011 8:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 116 by hERICtic
06-17-2011 7:31 PM
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Re: Not A False Prophet
quote:
I never stated there arent many styles and writings, nor did I suggest it is not symbolic. I do have an issue that the terminology "coming on clouds" is symbolic though. I see no evidence to sway me on this issue. In fact, it appears very clear that "coming on clouds" does refer to his second coming.
So the links I provided that showed how the cloud symbolism was used in the OT doesn't suggest the same type of usage in the NT given the author's copious references to the OT? What evidence do you have that the phrase actually refers to clouds in the sky?
quote:
What are your thoughts on this? All symbolism? Or do you think Matthew is refering to the return of Jesus? Coming in his glory? Angels with him? Sitting on this throne? Nations gathered before him? Seperating people, rewarding some, punishing others?
The author of Matthew, IMO, is writing about the judgment that already happened in 70 CE. God's judgment manifested itself through armies and disasters. The author is also only talking about that region, not the planet or all nations on the planet. The destruction of the first temple was a judgment from God. Now the second temple was destroyed. Another judgment, separation from God.
quote:
Not sure why you keep bringing up about what forum this is. I didnt start this debate on the second coming and others are discussing similiar issues. In fact, this thread is about Jesus being a false prophet. I have every intention after "proving" Jesus was wrong about his prediction of the end times to show why he is a false prophet. I havent forgetten what we were discussing earlier. I do understand the context of what was happening in Matthew. I think its vital, bc the author believed those were the end times.
It's about Jesus being a false prophet based on a specific verse and the rules of Deuteronomy.
frako writes: Mark 9:1 King James Version 1. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. or Matthew 16:28, or Luke 9:27 he says basically the same thing He fails the test: All of the people he was talking too are dead and no kingdom of god in sight. Only when one leads God's people to other gods is the person considered a false prophet. If you're going to prove Jesus is wrong based on reality, then you would need to prove that he actually said what the author claimed he said. You have no evidence of that. At most, the author was wrong. We can't judge Jesus by today's beliefs. Accuracy and Inerrancy is where we compare the Bible to reality due to what some believe today. Bible Study gets into what the writings in the Bible really mean. What were the authors telling their audiences. Within the Bible writings, Jesus is not presented as a false prophet. He was not charged with trying to lead the Jews to other gods. Jesus is not presented as trying to deceive the Jews.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by hERICtic, posted 06-17-2011 7:31 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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