Why are there no human apes alive today?

This is covered by rule 8 of the Forum Guidelines:

8. Avoid any form of misrepresentation.

Please don't make what is already a confusing discussion even more confusing.Also, whether the "Dear" was intended as indicating fondness or as snide, belittling and condescending, either way it is best avoided. I know Dr Adequate can be very snarky, but I can't realistically provide assistance to anyone who is being equally snarky.What I can do is issue general requests to keep discussion civil and courteous, and then suspend for a day or two those who are not.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

IamJoseph's complete sentence in Message 840 was this: I don't think it was a personal question - he was using the plural, not personal, "your".

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Actually, grammar, as well as terminology, is a big part of the problem in understanding your posts. Your grammar and terminology are often incorrect. Understanding your intended meaning by reading what you've written is often very difficult. It would be helpful if you could recognize that fact and provide additional explanation when requested.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Oh, sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think he said anything that made sense. I just don't think the question was directed at you personally.Here's the question again: I think he may be asking that you provide evidence supporting the theory that humans are descended from an ancient species of non-human apes, while also making a side comment about the difficulty you'll have doing this in the absence of evidence of parentage for each generation.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hello everyone!This thread is stuck in a back and forth of "Yes it is", "No it isn't". If anyone has suggestions for how best to improve this thread's focus on the topic and make the discussion more constructive then I would welcome hearing it.But in the absence of any better ideas then I shall proceed as I described earlier. Please address the topic as I described it in my two earlier points in a substantive fashion. Those who do not will receive a one day suspension. If you've posted off-topic before seeing this message, better edit quick!

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

All the posts after my previous one raise specific issues addressing the topic, which gives me something to work with since I can require replies to address what was said.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

It appears to me that Mazzy has worked very hard to provide something specific that respondents can engage with. She provides these specific differences for judging humans unrelated to non-human apes: She further provides these baraminology quotes that provide criteria for judging which forms reside within the same holobaramin: Respondents should address this material.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I haven't seen Mazzy use the word "holobaramin" before, though the supporting arguments look familiar. Could you please explain again where the errors lie in what Mazzy has said. You can cut-n-paste from your previous posts.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Here's a link to your post, if that helps: Message 873

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,You have written yet another essay consisting of many of your oft-repeated points, but without directly addressing anything Coyote said. Could you please take another stab at rebuttal, this time quoting a small piece of Coyote's message and rebutting it, then quoting another small piece of Coyote's message and rebutting that, and so forth.Also please keep in mind that denigrating things can be said about anything, but just saying them proves nothing. To actually carry a point you have to build an argument around evidence.We actually try to discourage rebuttals that are primarily bare assertions and disparaging comments. A good example of this style of rebuttal is where you said, "It means you will use your crazy algorithms to ascertain what looks more similar to what, as if nothing is going to be more similar to another as created, and use this everchanging nonsense as a bases for irrefutable evidence that often ends up in the garbage bin of evolutionary delusions of evidence past.eg knucklewalking ancestry, LUCA, Ardi." We much prefer to see discussion focus on evidence and rationale.Glad you found your post!

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,I'm just now starting to catch up on last night's posts, and in this message I see you've taken me up on my suggestion to quote what you're responding to, and I appreciate that, but then I hit this passage: Until I hit the word "anagenetic" I thought you had written this, then I noticed the link you'd placed a dozen or so lines further down, so I assumed that meant the cut-n-pasted material had come from the webpage you linked to at Apologetics Press. Except it doesn't. It actually comes from Reasons to Believe: From Wence do we Come? Part 1 of 2.Anyway, to avoid confusion about which are your words and which are not you can quote the entire passage, including an indication of where it came from, like this: Even better would be to summarize the points from the link in your own words and go on to describe how they support your view, providing the link only as a reference.Edited by Admin, : Clarify.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,I'm putting a portion of my effort in this thread into maintaining a civil and courteous level of dialogue, and I noticed that Dr Adequate responded rather rudely to your message, but it seems to be because you asked him this: Not only did Dr Adequate never state that he believed Ardi, Lucy and Homo Erectus are all human ancestors, I'm pretty sure no one else here has said this, either. And I recall many people writing that it is impossible to tell which ancestral candidates are cousins and which are actual ancestors.So I think it would help the discussion if people weren't asked to defend things they didn't say.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,As moderator I'm not here to take sides in the debate. My reply to you said nothing about whether Dr Adequate was right or wrong, and I'm not here to defend any position anyone stakes out on either side.My role as moderator is merely to keep discussion constructive and on-topic, and correcting misunderstandings like the one I described to you is one way I do that. This means that I take no position concerning whether Ardi or Lucy or Homo erectus are direct human ancestors or not. I was only correcting your misimpression that there are some here claiming that they are direct human ancestors. ZenMonkey has posted a very lucid response describing the issue, so I shant elaborate. Once you understand what he's saying you'll have to reassess this conclusion that you based upon your misunderstanding:

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Mazzy's suspension is because it's becoming clear that more words from me are not going to be any more helpful than the earlier words from me.Dr Adequate's suspension is for not knowing when to let up. Mazzy's claims of victory and torrents of unsupported assertions whose rebuttals she refuses to engage or even understand do indeed invite derision, but there's a limit.I sincerely regret both suspensions, but I feel I've exhausted my options as far as verbal persuasion.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,I'm posting this reply to correct a matter of fact. You said: The issue of fact is that I did not say this. This is what I actually said: So you were incorrect in stating that I agree these species are "not in the human line." I said I take no position on the issue.My actual opinion on the matter is this: I do not know whether any of these species lie on a direct line of descent to humans. The evidence indicates that it is possible, especially for Homo erectus, but it seems very unlikely to me that any conclusive evidence would ever become available.Let me add a moderator comment: I earlier pointed out to you that you were ascribing opinions to Dr Adequate that he never expressed, indeed, that no one in this thread has ever expressed. Now you've ascribed to me an opinion that I have never expressed. And there have been other times when I've noticed you doing this to others, and then there's the problem that most of your posts are filled with assigning positions to evolution that it does not hold.As moderator in this thread I take no position on any issue, but does that doesn't mean I play dumb. It just means I don't take sides. I have been a part of the creation/evolution controversy for a very long time, and I am very familiar with the claims of both sides. I know what the claims of creationism are, and I know what the claims of evolution are. As moderator I take no position on whose claims are right or wrong, but I do know what those claims are, and for the most part you are arguing against positions that evolution does not hold, and then you're ignoring or dismissing all attempts at correction.The goal here at EvC Forum is constructive dialogue. I'm here to try to help make constructive dialogue possible, something that is relatively rare on the Internet where controversial topics are concerned. Anyone who exhibits an interest in constructive dialogue will have no problems with me as moderator.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director