Why are there no human apes alive today?

Hi Doubletime,I'm going to just promote this thread of your three recent proposals. I'll decide about the other two after we see how this one fares.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Hi Nuggin,Moderators are strongly discouraged from moderating threads in which they're participating, but I think I'm on safe ground in this instance because we're on the same side in this discussion. I'm not going to moderate this thread, I'm just changing for roles for a moment to provide some feedback:You're probably a bit too far over the line regarding rule 10:

10. Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hello everyone,I am going to recuse myself from debate and discussion in this thread as Percy for the next two days, then beginning Monday morning I will take on a moderator role as Admin. Members might want to brush up on their Forum Guidelines, particularly these:

2. Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
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4. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
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5. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
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10. Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

Quote boxes will be required. For a description of how to use quote boxes see the announcement whose link is at the top of this page, or read the dBCode documentation.Discussion will continue for 300 more messages after I begin moderating, followed by a short period for participants to post their final summations. Only one summation per person, no responses permitted.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

As of this morning I will be moderating this thread. I'm hoping to achieve a better focus on the two primary subtopics:

1. The classification system that places Homo sapiens in the in the Hominidae family, popularly known as the "great apes", which itself resides within the Hominoidea superfamily, popularly known as apes.
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2. How relatedness is determined in both extant and extinct species, and how this applies to human ancestry.

The validity of the theory of evolution is not a topic of this thread. That subject is reserved for threads in the Biological Evolution forum. Anyone wishing to discuss evolution's validity or lack thereof should find a thread in that forum, or propose a new thread over at Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0.Please PM me if you feel I've haven't properly captured this thread's topic, I'll make corrections as necessary.As always, the Forum Guidelines serve as my guide. For those interested there is a Moderator Guide that outlines how moderators here at EvC Forum should try to carry out their responsibilities (it desperately needs updating - for one thing, it uses an older version of the Forum Guidelines).I am not a stickler for following the Forum Guidelines. I ask no more than that people follow them pretty well much of the time. While discussion is moving constructively forward, which is the main goal of EvC, there isn't any need for a moderator to step in regardless of how well or poorly the Forum Guidelines are being followed.Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

To the extent ERVs are relevant to establishing relatedness they seem on-topic for this thread.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Now that discussion has resumed, here's a repeat of my earlier message:As of this morning I will be moderating this thread. I'm hoping to achieve a better focus on the two primary subtopics:

1. The classification system that places Homo sapiens in the in the Hominidae family, popularly known as the "great apes", which itself resides within the Hominoidea superfamily, popularly known as apes.
   ​
2. How relatedness is determined in both extant and extinct species, and how this applies to human ancestry.

The validity of the theory of evolution is not a topic of this thread. That subject is reserved for threads in the Biological Evolution forum. Anyone wishing to discuss evolution's validity or lack thereof should find a thread in that forum, or propose a new thread over at Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0.Please PM me if you feel I've haven't properly captured this thread's topic, I'll make corrections as necessary.As always, the Forum Guidelines serve as my guide. For those interested there is a Moderator Guide that outlines how moderators here at EvC Forum should try to carry out their responsibilities (it desperately needs updating - for one thing, it uses an older version of the Forum Guidelines).I am not a stickler for following the Forum Guidelines. I ask no more than that people follow them pretty well much of the time. While discussion is moving constructively forward, which is the main goal of EvC, there isn't any need for a moderator to step in regardless of how well or poorly the Forum Guidelines are being followed.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

It would be a great help to the discussion if you could do two things:

1. Quote the point you're responding to.
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2. Please explain how any link you provide supports your position.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,There's pro and con to every issue, and usually more nuanced positions, too. These are the issues that are on topic in this thread:

1. The classification system that places Homo sapiens in the in the Hominidae family, popularly known as the "great apes", which itself resides within the Hominoidea superfamily, popularly known as apes.
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2. How relatedness is determined in both extant and extinct species, and how this applies to human ancestry.

Anyone can take any position they like on these issues, including that the classification system and methods for determining relatedness are completely bogus.I only issued a clear statement of the topic in an effort to reduce the off-topic digressions. Anyone is free to discuss any position they like on these topics, but if you'd like to discuss other topics, such as how evolution is bogus, you'll need to find another thread, or propose a new one over at Proposed New Topics.EvC Forum uses moderation in order to keep discussion on-topic and moving constructively forward. I think most people have by this time achieved a clear understanding of your position, and now they hope you'll explain the evidence and rationale behind that position.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,This is where moderation steps in to help keep discussion moving constructively forward. You stated your incredulity that researchers could "get so bamboozled by fossils that are no more than varieties of apes." Dr Adequate has requested that you provide the criteria you allows you to avoid being bamboozled the way researchers are.This seems like a reasonable request, so please provide that criteria.By the way, I'll be enforcing rule 10 of the Forum Guidelines that requests courtesy and civility. Participants should keep their focus on the topic rather than on the shortcomings of the people they're debating with by avoiding comments like this: I'm not happy that Dr Adequate referred to you as uneducated, it does seem uncivil, but since you already applied that label to yourself in Message 346 I would be not be on firm ground raising an objection.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The theory of evolution, the TOE, is not the topic of this thread. If you'd like to discuss the TOE then please find a thread in the Biological Evolution forum, or propose a new thread over in Proposed New Topics. I am here to prevent personal attacks, but all Dr Adequate did was quote your own words back to you while making a very helpful suggestion: If you're wondering how creationists could conclude that Turkana boy was human then you need only explore your own thinking of a few weeks ago.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The theory of evolution, the ToE, is not the topic of this thread. If you would like to discuss the ToE then please find a thread in the Biological Evolution forum, or propose a new topic over at Proposed New Topics.These are the two issues that are the topic of this thread (these descriptions have been amended slightly to avoid confusion):

1. The details and validity of the classification system that places Homo sapiens in the in the Hominidae family, popularly known as the "great apes", which itself resides within the Hominoidea superfamily, popularly known as apes.
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2. The details and validity of how relatedness is determined in both extant and extinct species, and how this applies to human ancestry.

Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Bluegenes,Please don't let Joseph shift the topic away from biological classification and human evolution.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi IamJoseph,I am asking contributors to this thread to be proactive in helping move the discussion constructively forward. Dr Adequate indicated that he could't make sense of what you said, and a more helpful response than this would nice: But more importantly, if you would like to discuss the theory of evolution in general rather than biological classification and human evolution then please find a thread in Biological Evolution or propose a new topic over in Proposed New Topics.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Mazzy,I'm just here as the moderator and am not participating in the discussion. Please don't waste any valuable time including me in the discussion.I think it would be very beneficial to focus attention on the classification system that groups humans with apes because at this point there are different understandings of it that are causing a lot of confusion. The goal is not necessarily agreement, though that would be nice, but just an understanding of each other's position, and I think reaching an understanding on this issue is important. I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread to make sure this receives some degree of attention.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director