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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2307 of 3694 (909839)
04-11-2023 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2299 by Tangle
04-08-2023 3:30 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
He influences us directly, but he doesn't influence us directly. I don't know how you think this is an answer.
I don't know how to answer this. When you observe someone returning some money that was dropped and it influences you to do the same thing in a similar occurrence later then would you call that influence direct or not?
Tangle writes:
You have also left out the other half of the story told to children about godly whispering. The devil whispers in the other ear doesn't he? He tempts us with his 'rough, loud voice' to do the bad things. Do you believe in this too?
Frankly I don't believe individual personality named satan that leads us to do evil. I agree with Pogo when he says, as best as I can remember it, "that we have seen the enemy and it is us".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2299 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2023 3:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2309 by Tangle, posted 04-12-2023 2:27 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2310 of 3694 (910004)
04-14-2023 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2304 by Stile
04-10-2023 9:05 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
I think you're stuck in the issue of "knowing things 100%" - this is a problem with philosophers who do not understand how reality works.
People being affected by this problem seem to think that if "any doubt at all" exists - then we "don't know what's going on" to a level that is unreasonable considering how much we do know about "what's going on" according to the evidence we do have.
Of course. It is your view it seems that the most reasonable answer is to only look for the answers that can be based on what is close to 100% known. So then you say the following.
Stile writes:
The thing is - we don't know anything at all 100%.
We don't know gravity 100%.
We don't know our own parents 100%.
We don't know our own thoughts 100%.
We don't even know if we exist at all 100%.

Nothing. At. All.
That's all fine but both of us would agree that we have enough information to be firmly convinced that we can answer these questions with very close to 100% certainty.
Then you say:
Stile writes:
Of course, none of this stops us from learning what we can, doing what we can based upon that knowledge, and growing our knowledge in areas where it's lacking.

We know quite a bit about how gravity works, enough to do some pretty amazing stuffs - even if it's not 100%
We know quite a bit about our own parents, enough to have some pretty amazing experiences - even if it's not 100%
We know quite a bit about our own thoughts, enough to live some pretty amazing lives - even if it's not 100%
We know quite a bit about our own existence, enough to flourish into a few billion of us all over the planet - even if it's not 100%
Yes, and all of those questions can be answered scientifically or materialistically.
There are questions however that fall outside of that category. You and others contend that things like life itself just happened by mindless chance and then look at things that something as basic, but still as complex as, a single living cell that can reproduce and evolve to conscious life strictly by chance. Frankly I find that belief bizarre and largely rising from wanting to have absolute 100% answers.
Nobody knows 100% whether or not life as we perceive it exists as a result of a pre-existing intelligence. I contend that the belief that it does is a far mor reasonable conclusion, although not 100%, that it does. We even have no way of knowing whether or not any life exists that we are unable to perceive with our 5 senses.
We are like the 2 dimensional flatlanders in Abbot's book Flatland, except that we are 1 dimension up in our 3 dimensional world and unable to perceive and ridicule a 4 dimensional world.
Stile writes:
And you're wrong.
I mean - you can believe or contend or whatever else you'd like to call it. It's equivalent to contending that the 'best explanation' for gravity is tiny angels pushing everything together.

Can't prove it wrong - but all the evidence we have shows us that it's wrong. It's not required, and there are natural-explanations that do explain why it is that way much, much better. Tiny angels explain nothing. "External non-material influences" explain nothing.
You have physical evidence of how life evolved. What evidence do you have that explains why life exists at all?
GDR writes:
Sure our perceived reality exists and can often be verified but we can only surmise the answer to the question of why reality exists the way it does.
Stile writes:
This is also wrong.

This is like saying we can only surmise why gravity acts the way it does.

True: We do not know 100% everything about gravity.
Also True: We have massive amount of evidence that show us why gravity acts the way it does and we can explain almost all of it.
Most likely true explanation: Gravity is a natural phenomenon that occurs naturally.
We have a ton of evidence on how gravity works and saying we can only surmise about why it's that way is a ridiculous falsehood and only put forward by the ignorant attempting to protect their own fears on identifying that reality may be different from their beliefs - ie "Flat Earthers"

True: We do not know 100% everything about the evolution of humans.
Also True: We have massive amount of evidence that show us why humans evolved the way we did (morality and social integration included) and we can explain almost all of it.
Most likely true explanation: Human evolution is a natural phenomenon that occurs naturally.
We have a ton of evidence on how human evolution works and saying we can only surmise about why it's that way is a ridiculous falsehood and only put forward by the ignorant attempting to protect their own fears on identifying that reality may be different from their beliefs - ie "Anyone saying that morality could not have evolved"
You are simply answering the question by ignoring the question. Why do our perceptions of the world and our lives exist at all, as opposed to how life and the world evolved the way it has.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2304 by Stile, posted 04-10-2023 9:05 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2311 by Stile, posted 04-14-2023 3:33 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2312 of 3694 (910013)
04-14-2023 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2305 by Stile
04-10-2023 9:10 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
By taking the information we have, testing it against reality, and growing our confidence in results that are always repeated.
This allows reality to define itself, rather than letting our ideas attempt to define reality.

It's not a secret - it's our best known way to identify reality.
It kinda sucks - because you never get to know when you're done "getting closer to the truth" (there's no answer book to reality to just look up.)
But, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than any other known method like "looking at a religious book" or "see what others seem to think" - which are known to almost always give wrong answers about reality.

Getting closer to the truth about reality is waaaaaaaaaaaaay better then simply being wrong.
Sure, that works for something that we can have information on. There is the question of why is there something instead of nothing. What information do you have for that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2305 by Stile, posted 04-10-2023 9:10 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2322 by Stile, posted 04-17-2023 9:52 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2313 of 3694 (910014)
04-14-2023 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2308 by PaulK
04-12-2023 12:04 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
simply disagree on what we believe the truth to be.
PaulK writes:
By insisting that “survival of the fittest” must be a raw competition of all against all with no room for cooperation or altruism. Even when talking about the arguments for the latter. And you’ve been doing it for over a decade ignoring all corrections

There is no need for an outside influence. Evolution itself will do what’s required.
Yes that is your belief. I would add that co-operation and altruism are not synonymous.
PaulK writes:
make the effort to try to keep my beliefs aligned with truth - that includes checking sources, avoiding misrepresentation and being willing to change my mind. You avoid all these things. Indeed your comment seems to be an admission that I was correct and that all through this conversation your claims that the truth was actually important to you were false all along.
Our beliefs are simply about what the truth actually is. We disagree. We can both find sources for our beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2308 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2023 12:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2315 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2023 1:36 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2314 of 3694 (910016)
04-14-2023 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2309 by Tangle
04-12-2023 2:27 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
It's simple learned cultural behaviour. It's how civilisations - and children (and chimps) - develop.
Sure, and you contend that evolutionary forces account for altruistic behaviour can be accounted for simply through the evolutionary process which is all about the strengthening of an individual species like Darwin's finches. Sure we have learned cultural behaviours but why do we instinctively know that there some learned behaviours that are good and some behaviours that are instinctively bad.
Tangle writes:
Can't you see how one-sided this is? God is responsible for the good in us but we are responsible for the bad? This is just religious nonsense. Why can't you say “we have seen the friend and it is us?” At least we have evidence for that.
I guess you can say that God created both as He gave us the free will to choose good or bad, right or wrong etc. However He also gave us the ability to distinguish between the two, and the instinctive understanding of which one we should choose aided by His "still small voice".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2309 by Tangle, posted 04-12-2023 2:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2316 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2023 2:55 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2317 by Theodoric, posted 04-15-2023 9:03 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2318 of 3694 (910051)
04-15-2023 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2311 by Stile
04-14-2023 3:33 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Stile writes:
​"I contend that tiny angels pushing things together is a far more reasonable conclusion than gravity, although not 100%."

Feel free to continue with your contention.
The evidence shows otherwise for gravity, and equally so for human development without any external influence.
...and that is your contention. Even considering the law of gravity. Sure we can see it acting naturally but there is the oft repeated phrase that a law requires a law giver. You keep muddying the waters. I'm not questioning the science but you contend that science exists on its own without any intelligence responsible for those scientific facts in the first place. You also contend that there is a scientific basis for conscious beings with intelligence that doesn't require a per-existing intelligence. You too are free to continue with your contentions.
Stile writes:
"Why do our perceptions of gravity exist at all, as opposed to how all the evidence explains gravity in that way?"
Our perceptions of gravity exist at all because of all the evidence we have to explain gravity in that way.
All the evidence points to a car being the way it is because that's the way a robotic assembly line made it that way. No intelligence requires.
Stile writes:
Our perceptions of the world and our lives exist at all because of all the evidence that life and the world evolved the way it has.
Sure, but why has the world evolved the way it has?
Stile writes:
We've looked - it's quite possible that we did find evidence that our perceptions of the world and our lives exist due to external influences beyond our current ability to identify. This would be things like massive gaps in our knowledge that don't make any sense according to our current paradigms. That is - all the vast amounts of evidence we have would seem useless for any attempts to explain such gaps. This situation did exist 100 or 200 years ago.

But - this situation doesn't exist anymore.
After looking more and more and more... we do see gaps in our knowledge - but they are very small, and easily theorized to be a part of the same natural processes we have vast amounts for. There's nothing that looks like it can't fit in. There could have been (as there was hundreds of years ago) - there just isn't anymore.

100 years ago - your claims had some merit. There was lots we didn't know.
But now - it's over. Your claims have been checked, and they're just wrong.
Your argument is based on a materialistic world view which is a belief. Science examines and often explains a materialistic world, but it doesn't explain why the materialistic world we perceive is there at all.
It's not really germane but there are huge gaps in our knowledge beginning with abiogenesis and for that matter we don't really know what other gaps there might be in our knowledge. Newton had no idea that the science of QM even existed.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2311 by Stile, posted 04-14-2023 3:33 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2323 by Stile, posted 04-17-2023 2:13 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2319 of 3694 (910071)
04-15-2023 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2315 by PaulK
04-15-2023 1:36 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
Unless you are a radical relativist who has his own truth that is not the case. What evolutionary theory claims - and the reasoning behind it is fact. The evolutionary definition of fitness is fact, as is the meaning of “selfish genes”. If you disagree about those then you are simply wrong.
It is a fact that your idea of evolution is simplistic and wrong. At worst I am far closer to the truth than you - because you choose to be ignorant and have done so for over a decade.
Darwin wrote that "I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious views of anyone.”, and of course it shouldn't as his theory only concerned of how physical life as we know it came to be.
From this site Nature-The Selfish Gene I got the following quote.
quote:
Dawkins wrote that “from the point of view of the selfish genes themselves there is no paradox. The true 'purpose' of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite.”
Beyond DNA Dawkins coined the term "meme' to designate a cultural replicator or the passage of ideas or thoughts. We can only surmise where or how these ideas or thoughts originated.
In other words evolution is a strictly physical process, and if anyone wants to make the point that empathy and altruism evolved it requires a completely different process.
In either case it is my contention that an intelligent root cause for either process is much more likely to be intelligent than not.
PaulK writes:
It is a fact that your idea of evolution is simplistic and wrong. At worst I am far closer to the truth than you - because you choose to be ignorant and have done so for over a decade.
OK, so educate me. Where am I being ignorant.
PaulK writes:
So you think that your uninformed opinions - wilfully uninformed at that - are on the same level as the facts. That is egotism, not a concern for the truth.
I have taken care to outline my beliefs as beliefs and not as fact. Frankly it is you that egotistically presents your views as facts.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2315 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2023 1:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2320 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2023 1:25 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2321 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2023 3:48 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2324 of 3694 (910235)
04-19-2023 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2316 by Tangle
04-15-2023 2:55 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Because for hundreds of thousands of years we've learned that some behaviours are more beneficial than others. It's not a matter of good or bad, it's what works for us and what doesn't. Eventually those behaviours become hardwired.

Much later we developed consciousness and began to have some control over our primitive emotions; we can act against our hardwired instincts but 'normal' people can't avoid them. See someone harmed and we feel it ourselves. See someone laugh and we laugh, see someone cry for a lost child and we cry. It's inbuilt like a dog wagging it's tail and a pigeon homing.
That's fine, but there is a big difference between figuring out what works and what is morally right. Genocide can work. Look at how well slavery worked for years until people finally said this is wrong.
When we send funds into some foreign country to help those who are destitute we aren't doing it because it works. We keep hearing about the world being over-populated so we would be better off just to let them die off and reducing the competition for resources. That behaviour goes against evolution forces that involve personal well being and survival.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2316 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2023 2:55 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2327 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2023 2:20 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2325 of 3694 (910239)
04-19-2023 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2320 by PaulK
04-16-2023 1:25 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
“How physical life came to be” would be abiogenesis, not evolution.
Note also that this has nothing to do with your misrepresentations.
So you are saying that evolution required abiogenesis as a starting point. Are you then saying that the first individual cells were instantly created without any need for an evolutionary process?
GDR writes:
Dawkins wrote that “from the point of view of the selfish genes themselves there is no paradox. The true 'purpose' of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite.”
PaulK writes:
Note that this only addresses a part of the concept - and a part utterly unrelated to your idea that “the selfish gene” was the same as “original sin”.
Firstly, I don't tend to use the term original sin as Dawkins says selfishness is something that is simply in our DNA and built into our human nature. However, we are able to overcome the selfishness and have empathy and even behave altruistically, Tangle claims that we can do that doing what works and by it being passed along culturally. I disagree with the idea that it works, (again, benefits gained through working collectively is not the same as altruistic behaviour). as I said in my previous reply to him.I have no problem with the it being passed along along culturally with fits with Dawkins proposal of memes.
PaulK writes:
Which is also completely unrelated to your misrepresentation of evolution.
How am I misrepresenting evolution.
PaulK writes:
Since behaviour does evolve and since our brains are the product of evolution this is is simply wrong.
I don't deny that it evolves but that does not make it part of the ToE.
PaulK writes:
and intentionally remaining ignorant of evolution to maintain your misrepresentation- in order to buttress your contention. That is not the behaviour of someone who seeks the truth.
You really think that with all the time and study that I have put into this subject that I'm not seeking the truth. I readily acknowledge that what I contend is the truth can't be proven but I do contend that it is rational.
Yes, I have no training in the field of biology but I have read what is written by those that do from Dawkins who is an atheist to Francis Collins who is a Christian.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2320 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2023 1:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2326 by PaulK, posted 04-20-2023 12:32 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2328 of 3694 (910292)
04-20-2023 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2321 by Tangle
04-16-2023 3:48 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
Whether the ToE should or shouldn't shock the religious views of people is rather moot as we know that it did and you can see here that it still does.

In fact, prior to Darwin, the common belief was that the species were immutable. They were put on earth by god exactly the way we see them today. You would have believed that and you would have fought against it just like you're fighting against the idea that empathy could have evolved. It shocked because a deep seated belief was overturned. The religious world - which was pretty much all of it pre-Darwin - was deeply shocked by the implications of Darwin's discovery.

And a large proportion of religious ignoramuses in the USA still refuse to accept facts.
I would suggest that the number of ignoramuses that can't accept the facts of evolution is shrinking rapidly. However there are still flat earthers.
Actually I'm not fighting against anything. I am simply going with what I believe to be true.
My theology is based on 3 things essentially; The Bible, All the books I've read and talks I've listened to and frankly my life and the world I live in.
As far as the Bible is concerned I read it as a a series of book that together provide a narrative of the progressive understanding of the nature of God by the Jewish people, with it climaxing in the Jewish Messiah namely Jesus. Within that narrative we find horrific things that are done in God's name that are totally inconsistent with the message of peace and love that Jesus lived and taught, and have to be rejected. I understand the OT through the lens of the NT. That in my understanding is the Israel story.
However since that time it is in my view the continuing progressive understanding of the the nature of God, or the narrative of the church. I guess I'm closest to identifying with Brian McLaren, Rob Bell and other proponents of the so-called Emerging Church.
So yes, I do believe that over time our understandings do grow, even though there are periods of regression.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2321 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2023 3:48 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2329 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2023 3:13 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2330 of 3694 (910364)
04-21-2023 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2322 by Stile
04-17-2023 9:52 AM


Why not how
Stile writes:
Same as you: None.

Which is why there's no sense in making up a God to "solve" the question.
It makes more sense to use the information we do have (that God does not exist) and extrapolate that into this unknown area.

If new information becomes known - then we look at it and see if the idea needs to change or not.

That's how people who prioritize truth proceed.

People who do not prioritize truth seem to think that having no information is a good place to create ideas from their imagination - even though this has been shown to be incorrect pretty much every time we eventually do learn additional information.

Neither of these methods is "right" or "wrong."
They are just different methods for dealing with situations where no information is available.

One aligns with prioritizing identifying the truth of reality.
The other aligns with prioritizing personal preference over identifying the truth of reality.
The problem though is you are trying to answer a different question with something that tells us how things are and how they came to be. The questions like why is there something instead of nothing and why does life exist at all is something that science can't answer. If iof science does ultimately answer the question of how it occurred it does not answer the question of why it occurred and why, not how, it evolved at all.
No matter how you look at it, it is belief.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2322 by Stile, posted 04-17-2023 9:52 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2331 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2023 5:19 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2334 by Stile, posted 04-25-2023 9:41 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2332 of 3694 (910371)
04-21-2023 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2326 by PaulK
04-20-2023 12:32 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
Certainly not. I can’t see why you’d imagine such a thing. For a start, the first life probably wasn’t cellular. Evolution is impossible without replicators, therefore however the first replicators came to be, it wasn’t evolution.
What was it then?
PaulK writes:
Certainly not. I can’t see why you’d imagine such a thing. For a start, the first life probably wasn’t cellular. Evolution is impossible without replicators, therefore however the first replicators came to be, it wasn’t evolution.
OK. You provided a link to a post from over 10 years ago and what I wrote in that post I think deals with all the items in your post and I don't want to have to do the research all over again so I'll simply repeat that post you referred to.
quote:
In most Christian traditions our understanding of God is based on the three legged stool metaphor. The three legs are of course scripture, tradition and reason. The subject of the Idea of original sin has been dealt with before and most recently in the Bible Study Forum.
I’d like to suggest that we should look at original sin from the point of view of understanding the Biblical or scriptural view through human reasoning.
To start with I understand the Biblical creation story as inspired metaphor and most definitely not to be understood as anything more than that. Essentially it boils down to the fact that all things are created by God and that humans have been instilled with the ability to understand right and wrong. In addition humans are intended to choose what is right and use the correct choices to be good stewards of what has been created. (Not really doing all that well — are we? )
As a Christian, I believe that God has given us minds that reason and that He intends us to use that reason to form our understanding of ourselves and the world we live in. It is my contention that science falls firmly into the category of reason and as I have said in other threads I view science as natural theology. Ultimately then, theology and science are going to be congruent. As there is a great deal we don’t understand about in either field the congruency is not always obvious to us.
I want to attempt to explain where I see congruency through reason and scripture on the subject of original sin.
I think that we can safely assume that Richard Dawkins’ views are going to be based on reason and not scripture. He wrote a book The Selfish Gene and I think that he is on to something. Here is a brief quote from wiki on the subject of The Selfish Gene.
quote:
In describing genes as being "selfish", the author does not intend (as he states unequivocally in the work) to imply that they are driven by any motives or willmerely that their effects can be accurately described as if they were. The contention is that the genes that get passed on are the ones whose consequences serve their own implicit interests (to continue being replicated), not necessarily those of the organism, much less any larger level.
Dawkins wrote that genes behave as if they are selfish but in his book The Selfish Gene he writes:
quote:
we must not think of genes as conscious, purposeful agents. Blind natural selection, however, makes them behave rather is if they were purposeful, and it has been convenient as a shorthand, to refer to genes in the language of purpose.
Dawkins also claims that we as humans can overcome this natural selfishness that is inherent in our genes. He also writes this:
quote:
We have the power to deny the selfish genes of our birth and, if necessary, the selfish memes of our indoctrination. We can even discuss ways of deliberately cultivating and nurturing pure, disinterested altruism — something that has no place in nature, something that has never existed before in the whole history of the world. We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our creators. We alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.
What Dawkins has done, based on reason, is to come up with a concept of original sin. He says from the quote above that we have the natural selfishness in our genes. He then goes on to say that we are cultured by what he has termed memes. He tells us that because of memes we can rebel against the tyranny of our selfish replicators.
If we get away from the view held by some Christians that the Bible is to be read like a science text or newspaper then we can see many parallels with Dawkins’ ideas. The Bible tells us that we have knowledge of good and evil and the ability to choose between them. The term original sin is not a Biblical term but comes from the Christian understanding that we are born with a basic nature of selfishness, which is consistent with Dawkins view that we are born with selfish genes.
I don’t think that anyone would disagree that as humans our tendencies towards selfishness or unselfishness evolve over time both as individuals and as societies. Dawkins’ view is that this is a result of memetics. The definition of a meme varies but this is the best I could find.
quote:
A meme is an information pattern which is capable of being copied to another individual’s memory, mostly by means of imitation (though other techniques are possible as well) and which is subject to a selection process.
The quote was from this site on memtics. As we can see from this, memes are not physical but are non-physical thoughts and ideas that can be passed from one person to another resulting in the change of thoughts and ideas of individuals and societies. Dawkins believes, as I understand him, that we are infected, either positively or negatively by these memes or social replicators.
The Christian view using the scriptures, and the reasoning of Dawkins together, form a consistent message. As humans we have the freedom to make choices and we understand the difference between good and evil or selfishness and unselfishness. We understand that we should choose unselfishness or goodness, but that there is something basic within us that we have to overcome in order to commit acts for the benefit of someone else at our own expense.
The point I’m trying to make is this:
Original sin has always been a difficult doctrine to understand. My contention is that if we combine scripture and reason it is no longer difficult. Dawkins came to his understanding of selfish genes that we are born with through reason, and if we overlay the Genesis story with his reasoning we gain, what is in my view, a clear concept of original sin, along with the realization that we should move beyond that in our lives.
Out of that point I also want to say that Christians should apply both reason and scripture to our understanding of God and that science is born out of reason and could just as easily be called natural theology.
Of course Dawkins would consider his memes as having a strictly natural origin whereas I would see memes as God working in us. However, IMHO we have come to agreement on the basic nature of the human condition, and from my perspective a clearer understanding of our existence and the nature of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2326 by PaulK, posted 04-20-2023 12:32 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2333 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2023 1:39 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2335 of 3694 (910547)
04-26-2023 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2334 by Stile
04-25-2023 9:41 AM


Re: Why not how
GDR writes:
No matter how you look at it, it is belief.
Stile writes:
Only if you mangle the word to unrecognizability.

What we have is a bag (the answers to reality.)
And we're learning of the things in the bag.

Every time we don't know something, and we go into the bag and learn what it actually is - we find that it's a green circle (natural explanation of natural processes.)
Some people say that red squares (God is responsible) are in the bag, but no one's ever seen one, not in thousands of years of pulling green circles from the bag.

We have millions and millions and millions of green circles we've pulled from the bag.
Questions on evolution, morality, space, gravity, the water cycle, weather, diseases, viruses, measurements, material hardness, combustion engines, airplanes, computers, electronics, paintings, clay pots, modelling, accounting, finances, fashion, vision, smells, tastes... anything and everything we've ever encountered in reality.

Why questions (especially why questions,) where questions, how questions, when questions... all the questions possible.

Producing nothing but millions and millions and millions of green circles from the bag. Over and over and over again. Day in, day out.
Doesn't matter who goes looking (American, European, Asian, Indian, Inuit, Japanese, old, young, wise, foolish...) anyone who looks for an answer about reality, and is able to find one they can show to be true... always pulls a green circle.

We have one more question, just like all the others, where we don't have an answer (right now.)
It's another "why" question... just like the millions of other "why" questions that have been answered with green circles.

I think the answer is going to be another green circle.
Because all the answers have always been green circles. The evidence shows us that only green circles exist.

You think the answer is going to be a red square.
Because, to you, "it makes the most sense."

And you call the reasoning for both of our answers: "belief."

Yeah - nobody's buying that.

Again - this isn't a convince you or convince me thing... this is simply me telling you about reality. You can either look at the evidence yourself and see that I'm not lying about it... or ignore it. It doesn't change reality. It doesn't change the evidence.
Your reply is based simply on a materialistic view of the world and the only evidence available that is pertinent is scientific. Obviously as a theist I don't accept that. Certainly scientific evidence is more compelling but it answers different question. I'm repeating myself but we can look scientifically at evolutionary theory but that won't tell you why evolution exists in the first place even if science is able to solve the riddle of abiogenesis.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2334 by Stile, posted 04-25-2023 9:41 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2337 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2023 4:36 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2347 by Stile, posted 04-27-2023 9:17 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2336 of 3694 (910549)
04-26-2023 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2327 by Tangle
04-20-2023 2:20 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
That's fine, but there is a big difference between figuring out what works and what is morally right. Genocide can work. Look at how well slavery worked for years until people finally said this is wrong.
Tangle writes:
I was going to make the same argument. What we see as right and wrong changes over time. It's developmental. We are capable of both good and bad. Those that murder others know that what they do is wrong, they always have because it's hardwired into us like all our base emotions are. But we're conscious, thinking beings that are able to override those emotions if we see advantage in it and often do it anyway.
I agree that it is developmental except I don't see it as being hardwired into our system and I think we only have to look at human history to understand that as I read the Bible as a narrative of the progressive understanding of the nature of God and His desire for our sense of morality. I contend that as humans this progressive understanding continues, albeit irregular, and I agree that a big part of that is through social replication.
GDR writes:
When we send funds into some foreign country to help those who are destitute we aren't doing it because it works. We keep hearing about the world being over-populated so we would be better off just to let them die off and reducing the competition for resources. That behaviour goes against evolution forces that involve personal well being and survival.
Tangle writes:
GDR, we are far more complicated machines than this. We have complex drives and emotional reactions to situations. We do irrational things all the time for seemingly rational reasons. Russians are killing Ukrainians now, not because they want to but because some power crazed lunatic - a Christian btw - is telling them they must. They know it's wrong but do it anyway.

Evolution does not power our actions, you are ascribing simplistic ideas to a complicated organism that has developed far beyond those primitive mechanisms. We have evolved a conscious brain and developed a sophisticated society and set of behaviours that allow us to operate beyond pure instinct.

But we still have those primitive instincts imbedded in us - we know instinctively what is right and wrong but society and its institutions promote or prohibit those instincts. Societies are developmental, it's not at all certain that our better instincts will overcome our worse ones and in some parts of the world we can see they aren't.

God is not involved in any of this, if the kind of god you believe in is involved, he's a pathetic one, unable to achieve whatever you think he is trying to do. I don't know how you can look at the world and believe what you believe.
Firstly I have never seen anything Darwinian that goes beyond the idea of survival of the fittest. I see nothing in there that suggests an evolutionary process that would lead us to overcome our basic instincts for our own survival and well being. Certainly co-operation can fit into that but not empathy and more particularly altruism. That doesn't mean that it isn't evolving but no one has been able to convince me that there is any materialistic underpinnings behind it.
Secondly, I don't believe in a god who directly controls the world. Yes, I believe God influences human and quite possibly even all conscious thought, although easily ignored, but that is a very different thing.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2327 by Tangle, posted 04-20-2023 2:20 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2344 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:28 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2338 of 3694 (910556)
04-26-2023 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2329 by Tangle
04-21-2023 3:13 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Here is an article from USA Today done in 2017. Creationism support is at a new low
Tangle writes:
You don't even think you're doing it. You smile at the ignoramuses that think people were put on the planet 10,000 years ago fully formed, but don't realise you do the same in your own way.
..and as you believe that the best explanation is that everything evolved simply by mindless, fortuitous chance. As you have no hesitation to resort to ridicule, I guess it's ok for me to suggest that you are in the same camp except at the other end of the spectrum, in your own way.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2329 by Tangle, posted 04-21-2023 3:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2343 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2023 2:16 AM GDR has replied

  
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