|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: God is evil if He has miracles and does not use them. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
It matters to you, not to anybody else - just like the kind of ice cream you eat doesn't matter to anybody else.
I want a system of morality to govern my actions so that I can maximize helping other people and minimize hurting other people.My personal reason matters a great deal for that. Stile writes:
Good to know, Charlie.
I'm not interested in what society does. Stile writes:
How have I redefined stakeholders?
You just redefined stakeholders.... Stile writes:
What about in the case of drugs, where the "victims" don't always agree that they're victims?
If we do, however, use my system.. we should consult the victim and only the victim.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
How can you eliminate individual biases by emphasising individual opinions?
ringo writes:
I agree completely with this statement. It's precisely what my system is designed to prevent. That's why your own assessment of your behaviour has to be suspect. Stile writes:
Objective in the sense that a group of people is more likely to be "right" than an individual.
Objective in what sense? Stile writes:
Then society is "right".
What if society doesn't want to maximize helping people vs. minimizing hurting people? Stile writes:
Then society is "right".
What if society wants to prioritize society's survival at all costs? Stile writes:
Then society is "right".
What if society thinks rape victims are required as sacrifice to the Gods to keep the economy running? Stile writes:
I suppose you could say that each society has its own "group bias" - but the word "bias" loses its meaning if you claim that everybody has the same bias.
Wouldn't that be introducing society's own bias into the situation? Stile writes:
A group is by definition more objective than an individual.
How can you tell if society is "more objective" or not?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
What matters to everybody else is how everybody else treats other people. If your individual ideas are to treat people better than the average, that's nice. If your individual ideas are to treat people worse than the average, then society is going to have a problem with you. Otherwise, your individual ideas don't matter.
I just described that what matters to me is helping other people in whatever way they describe that as such.I'm talking about figuring out what matters to "everybody else." Stile writes:
So you never decide for somebody whether he's a victim or not?
If someone wants to judge for themselves that they would rather accept the negative consequences for whatever positive conditions they get in return... who am I to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to do drugs?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
But Charles Manson's bias is the problem, not the solution. That's why it's important to eliminate individual biases. Since you admit that you're not eliminating bias, your system fails drastically.
I'm not eliminating the bias.I'm saying that their bias is the only one that matters.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
It has nothing to do with wanting to help people or not hurt them. Other people can want to help people and not hurt them without caring in the least about your ideas. Your ideas don't matter to anybody but you.
Of course my individual ideas don't matter to anyone else who doesn't care about helping people and not hurting them.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Been there, done that. The guy who thinks he's being victimized by the gas company is biased. You want to base your actions on his complaint - i.e. you want to back his refusal to pay his gas bill.
ringo writes:
Then it should be easy for you to describe a simple scenario or example where this happens. Since you admit that you're not eliminating bias, your system fails drastically.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
But his opinion of "good" or "bad" is completely empty if it has no effect on the outcome.
I do not back the man's refusal to pay his gas bill.I simply back that this man gets to decided if what the gas company is doing to him is good or bad. Stile writes:
So you agree that your system doesn't work in this scenario. How is that not a failure?
On the course of punishment (here: not paying the gas bill), I've already agreed with you that such things should not be determined by the one affected by the action. I've already agreed that 3rd party is better in this scenario.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
If other people can want to help people and not hurt them without using your system, what's the benefit of your system?
ringo writes:
Of course they don't, who says they should? Other people can want to help people and not hurt them without caring in the least about your ideas. Your ideas don't matter to anybody but you.That doesn't change my proposed argument that my system is the best way to prioritize helping people and not hurting them.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Huh? It doesn't work and you ask why I call it a failure? If you had a car that only ran on Tuesdays, would you call that a success?
ringo writes:
Why would you think that? So you agree that your system doesn't work in this scenario. How is that not a failure? Stile writes:
You can't call something a success by only looking at the successes. You're proposing a "better" method, so you'd have to show that your system has a better success-failure rate than the existing system.
How many other people are the gas company affecting with the same action?Are all people saying that the gas company is being bad to them? Stile writes:
Nobody is suggesting sweeping him under the rug but your system seems to suggest giving inordinate weight to his (in this case) ridiculous complaint.
The point is not to sweep this one person under the rug.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Stile writes:
It isn't all about you. It doesn't matter what you individually do.
If the other people's system is better (better at prioritizing helping and not hurting others), then I would dump my system and take up that one. If mine's better, then I'd keep mine. Stile writes:
That's what society does. But they don't necessarily do it, as you suggest, by picking a side. They don't just decide that slaves don't like being slaves so slavery must be absolutely bad.
The point of this idea is to follow the moral priority: help others and don't hurt them as much as possible.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
Under your system, that one person would be the determining factor in the gas company's policy; essentially, people would pay what they chose to pay. That's why your system fails in the real world.
Are you saying that 1 person that is not happy is a "failure" when a gas company services 1000s of people? Stile writes:
It doesn't matter if the current system is a failure or not. If you want to propose a "better" system, you have to demonstrate that your system would work better.
Then... you're saying the current system is equally a failure? Stile writes:
But being "helped" and being "hurt' are not absolutes. One man's help is another man's hurt - and you're proposing that we follow the whims of the people least likely to be objective about it.
I'm calling it a success because it successfully identifies when someone is being hurt, and when someone is being helped. Stile writes:
So when somebody complains that he's being victimized by the gas company or the Mafia, you don't plan to give any weight to his complaint at all? You can't resolve the issue without giving weight to the complaint but your system is based strictly on the complainant, isn't it?
My system suggests to recognize that someone is hurt when they say that they are hurt.How is that "inordinate weight"?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
But you're letting the wrong people decide, the people with the vested interest. And you're ignoring the fact that most issues have two or more vested interests that are at odds with each other. You're arbitrarily picking a side.
That's exactly why my system is designed to let other people decide when they are hurt or helped. Stile writes:
You really have to make up your mind. Does society use your system or are you proposing a better system?
If society does exactly what I say they do... why do you have an issue with what I say?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
My mind is trying to make sense of what your mind is saying. Which is it? Are you describing the way society does it or are you proposing a better method?
ringo writes:
What you quoted wasn't about the state of my mind, it was about the state of yours... You really have to make up your mind.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Stile writes:
Perhaps you should try to be clearer. Are you proposing that we should base our decisions on the complainant's complaint?
First it's an inordinate amount of weight, next it's none at all... Perhaps you should assume less and read more.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024