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Author
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Topic: Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 565 of 1309 (728123)
05-24-2014 1:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 564 by RAZD
05-23-2014 10:36 PM
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They extolled Christian morality -- some quotes
The ones you posted show that they were not Christians, which I already said if you had bothered to read what I said. What I went on to say was that despite their not being Christians, but Deists and Unitarians and even an atheist, that nevertheless they all wrote extolling Christian morality as necessary to a successful society. Christian morality, not Christian faith as such. These quotes are actually well known and I think must even have been posted here at some time or other, but now it looks like I'm going to have to track them down again. ABE: There are lots of collections of such quotes: here's one: http://www.usachristianministries.com/...t-god-and-the-bible
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. - John Adams - Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable. - George Washington - True religion affords to government its surest support. - George Washington - Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams - The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity. - John Adams - God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever. - Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man - Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial - The United States in Congress assembled recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools. - United States Congress 1782 - For the use of schools. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 564 by RAZD, posted 05-23-2014 10:36 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 566 of 1309 (728124)
05-24-2014 1:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 561 by frako
05-23-2014 5:59 PM
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Re: conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
The problem with calling Catholicism Christian is that millions of Christians were killed by the Catholic Church during the Inquisition. You ought at least to care about pointing the finger at the right villain instead of at the victims of the villain.\ And in your diatribe against me in which you mentioned something about denying Africans condoms you also didn't bother to find out that it was the Catholic Church that did that too: Catholic Church and HIV/AIDS - Wikipedia Apparently you know nothing about the history of the Reformation and the fact that Catholicism was rejected by the Reformers as false Christianity. I forget what else you accused me and my fellow Christians of, but no doubt the same sort of blind slander. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 561 by frako, posted 05-23-2014 5:59 PM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 567 by frako, posted 05-24-2014 4:09 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 571 of 1309 (728144)
05-24-2014 11:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 569 by RAZD
05-24-2014 9:39 AM
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One little quote is wrong and he calls it "Christian pseudohistory" Sigh
I'm getting tired of being let down by my sources. I've had in mind for a long time that I need to get my own index together of references that I can trust on every subject I talk about. Hope I have the energy to do that. I looked up the memorial and that one isn't there as you said, JUST THAT ONE mind you, but he has a lot of good things to say about religion nevertheless, speaks of "the holy author of our religion" which certainly shows a strong identification with Christianity despite his rejection of its message of salvation. He makes reference to God quite a bit, showing a basically religious turn of mind, so getting worked up about the absence of that one misattributed short quote seems a bit excessive. Remember that Jefferson made his own Bible. He cut out all the supernatural references but clearly he liked what the Bible had to say otherwise, especially Jesus' teachings. So I don't find it unbelievable at all that he would say something like that. In the end you found one line from one of the men quoted that you are making into a huge big deal, nothing from that whole list of other founders and quotes. Your claim that this amounts to nothing but "Christian pseudohistory" seems more wishful than factual. Just for reference here's the memorial list of quotes
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 569 by RAZD, posted 05-24-2014 9:39 AM | | RAZD has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 574 of 1309 (728154)
05-24-2014 12:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 573 by ringo
05-24-2014 11:50 AM
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Re: One little quote is wrong and he calls it "Christian pseudohistory" Sigh
Funny, that long list of quotes that ARE on the memorial ought to show you that what I said is true.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 573 by ringo, posted 05-24-2014 11:50 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 578 by ringo, posted 05-24-2014 12:16 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 576 of 1309 (728156)
05-24-2014 12:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 572 by Modulous
05-24-2014 11:46 AM
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My point, for pete's sake, is that EVEN THOUGH these men were not Christians, and in fact could rightly be called antichrists because they rejected the Deity of Christ and His salvation, that NEVERTHELESS they all considered Christian morality to be superior and essential to a successful nation. This much IS shown by Jefferson's preserving all of the Bible that wasn't supernatural. Sheesh. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 572 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 11:46 AM | | Modulous has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 577 of 1309 (728157)
05-24-2014 12:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 575 by dwise1
05-24-2014 12:00 PM
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Re: They extolled Christian morality -- some quotes
I don't know Federer but I'm aware of Barton's llies and long since rejected anything he says.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 575 by dwise1, posted 05-24-2014 12:00 PM | | dwise1 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 579 by JonF, posted 05-24-2014 12:29 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 580 of 1309 (728161)
05-24-2014 12:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 579 by JonF
05-24-2014 12:29 PM
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Re: They extolled Christian morality -- some quotes
What Barton is wrong about is his insistence that the founders were Christians which they weren't, and he quoted John Adams so obviously out of context in one case that he isn't someone to trust. But these quotes aren't false.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 579 by JonF, posted 05-24-2014 12:29 PM | | JonF has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 587 of 1309 (728190)
05-24-2014 9:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 586 by Modulous
05-24-2014 8:26 PM
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Re: so, equal rights legislation...
Of course it's a tax on Jews Why are you carrying on about this?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 586 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 8:26 PM | | Modulous has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 589 of 1309 (728202)
05-25-2014 12:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 588 by Modulous
05-25-2014 8:43 AM
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Re: Yarmulkes and wedding cakes
Christians can't levy a tax on anything and a wedding is a one time event in case you haven't noticed. Also yarmulkes are not a problem for God's law, but gay weddings are. I'm sure it's a terrible hardship for gays that Christians refuse to make them a cake for an event that violates both common sense and God's law, even though they must have dozens of other cake makers who would do it for them, and I'm sure you are all going to punish us however you can for such an affront to anti-Christian dogma, but as I also said if that happens I'll go down singing hymns. And as far as I'm concerned there is no more discussion here.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 588 by Modulous, posted 05-25-2014 8:43 AM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 590 by Modulous, posted 05-25-2014 1:02 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 591 of 1309 (728205)
05-25-2014 1:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 581 by frako
05-24-2014 12:52 PM
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ABE: See a problem with the diagram I should have corrected: The dotted line from the early church to the Roman church should go to the line between the Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church because they were on an equal footing, the Orthodox not subordinate to the Roman. /ABE Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 581 by frako, posted 05-24-2014 12:52 PM | | frako has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 592 by frako, posted 05-26-2014 3:11 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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I Re: Second Thoughts
I really don't see why it should be so hard to tell the difference between religious freedom and discrimination on the basis of race etc. Discriminating against persons is rightly disallowed by law, but that is not what is going on in the case of businesses being asked to support an IDEA such as gay marriage or Catholicism as the Whore of Babylon. None of the businesses that have refused to support gay marriage have refused to serve homosexuals as such. They are welcome to any of the services that don't challenge the owner's religious principles. But the business will not serve an ideology or principle that is opposed by their religion. Nazis can buy all the cakes they want, but the business should not be required to write a pro-Nazi slogan on it. Really, I don't see much of a problem here.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 604 of 1309 (740546)
11-05-2014 5:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 602 by Taq
11-05-2014 4:54 PM
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Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
In at least one case I'm aware of the cake was ordered before the owner was told it was for a gay wedding. Too late to say there were scheduling problems.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 602 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 4:54 PM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 609 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 5:59 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
Well, yes. This is what I'm agreeing with. I agree with you, I know this is a difficult concept. But the fact is that the laws proposed have authorized general discrimination, rather than protecting religious freedom I'm very glad to hear we agree, but I don't seem to be getting your point. I'm not sure I know what you mean about "general discrimination." There is nothing difficult about the First Amendment's protection of religious freedom that I can see, and it's in the same amendment with freedom of speech. But this is exactly what the new laws are aimed against. Hard to see this as anything but an attack on Christianity in particular and a direct denial of the First Amendment. Christian business owners have already been harassed, fined, threatened with jail, and in one case they retreated to home but won't do wedding cakes any more which has caused them serious income problems. There is no doubt that Christians are being specifically targeted. Homosexuals also check out churches to find out if anything they disapprove of is being preached, with the intention of bringing legal action against them if so. What do you think of the lesbian mayor of Houston's issuing subpoenas to five Houston pastors to turn over their sermons and any other communications related to her new ordinance that allows either sex to use the public restroom of his or her choice?
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 610 of 1309 (740552)
11-05-2014 6:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 608 by Tangle
11-05-2014 5:51 PM
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Houston mayor
Hard to believe I need to produce references but that just shows that Christian news doesn't make it into the mainstream media. It's been huge in Christian circles for weeks now. There was such an uproar she finally withdrew the subpoenas. Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee and Glenn Beck called for pastors across the nation to send her their sermons and others to send Bibles. Last I heard she'd received something approaching a thousand Bibles but stacks of sermons were still being packed up to be sent. This last Sunday there was a big gathering of pastors in a Houston church to protest this egregious violation of religious liberty. But since you missed the whole thing, here's a Google page on the subject
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 608 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 5:51 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 613 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2014 6:17 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 611 of 1309 (740553)
11-05-2014 6:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 609 by Taq
11-05-2014 5:59 PM
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Re: I Re: Second Thoughts
Well, I'm sure they would be more careful now and ask the names of the bride and groom before taking the order, but the mother and daughter who came in to make the order sued them, they were harassed by people shouting obscenities into their shop and finally closed the shop, now the husband has a job driving a truck and the wife still does birthday cakes but no longer does wedding cakes.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 609 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 5:59 PM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 612 by Taq, posted 11-05-2014 6:15 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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