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Author | Topic: Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Maybe they should have followed their consciences then.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: It seems pretty obvious to me that they didn't, and that's the problem.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Well let's try this. Their action was in a purely secular arena with no religious component. According to the Bible, Christians are supposed to follow the secular law in such cases, are they not ?
Christians are not commanded to avoid associating with sinners, so that is not an issue either. Work done for hire does not exactly involve approving of the event - and the event itself is not significantly against Christian morality anyway. From a Christian point of view, demonstrating love for the outcast would seem clearly preferable to contributing to the attempts to cast them out. Finally, any objection to the law very much needs to understand the origin and purpose of the anti-discrimination laws. So it seems to me that their behaviour was clearly wrong and unChristian and therefore should be against their conscience. If they were really Christian.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: And how does this law "oppose God" ?
quote: Decent people wouldn't be breaking that law in the first place.
quote: The verses you quoted say that if you go against the secular law, you are going against God. You really should try to read the Bible more. Preferably a translation in a more modern English that you might find easier to understand. Romans 13 NASB
Be Subject to Government 13 Every (a)person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except (b)from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore (c)whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for (d)good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Footnotes: a. Romans 13:1 Or soulb. Romans 13:1 Lit by c. Romans 13:2 Lit he who d. Romans 13:3 Lit good work Seems pretty clear. You should obey the government, and the government has the right to punish evil. So I guess that any real Christian would happily obey this law. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: It seems that Jesus would disagree with the idea that all heterosexual weddings are acceptable. See Mark 10:11-12
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: I've got to admit that I was pleasantly surprised to see you agreeing with the Gospels. I expected you to damn it as a Catholic doctrine (since Protestant churches in general do NOT follow it), and drag up commentaries that disagree. But that really raises the question of why people who are happy to have their Churches perform equally sinful marriages are so obsessed with gay marriage and homosexuality in general. I would not be surprised if the bakers in question would be happy to knowingly bake a cake for such a wedding (unless they're Catholic, and even then they might). And given that the arguments against gay marriage are riddled with dishonesty, it' shard for me to see the opposition as having any moral basis at all.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
But it's not just that they happen to ignore it. To focus on other people' skins while neglecting your own is not a Christian attitude at all. And yet this is exactly what we see in the fuss over gay marriage. Even without the many lies it would be a bad state of affairs.
quote: Doing an honest and legal job for hire hardly constitutes conspiracy. And agan, as the verses you quoted from Romans state Christians should obey the civil authorities, too. From a Biblical perspective those bakers were sinning more in their refusal than in actually doing the work.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
That clearly doesn't apply as I have already argued - without any rebuttal on your part.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: Is it ? And even if it was, those bakers weren't being asked to marry somebody of the same sex, so they wouldn't be violating such a law even if there was one.
quote: I hardly think that baking a cake for a gay wedding constitutes a horrific sin. And if you want to argue otherwise, then you need an actual argument.
quote: In other words you put bigotry and hate before obedience to God. Well, that's your problem. Maybe you should be a real Christian and start repenting of your own sins.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: By which you mean that in your "Christian" opinion, bigotry is more important than following the law - as Romans 13 commands.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: Well, now it's just your opinion. I would think that in matters of "horrific sin" God would offer rather more guidance than ignorant opinions of bigots who don't even understand the purpose of the law they're refusing to follow.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: I think not. In the absence of anything objective - and you've refused to provide anything - then you were relying on opinion from the start.
quote: Which is why you can't find the Biblical support for your position ?
quote: You seem to miss the point that the law penalises ACTIONS not opinions.
quote: No, you can be fined for breaking the law. Having an opinion is not against the law.
quote: Actually it started with bigots persecuting minorities. Like Jews - and gays.
quote: Just your usual bullying, whining, lying and slandering your opponents. In reality the law is there to FIGHT that sort of persecution. Maybe that's the reason why you oppose it.
quote: It's more likely to be "Christians" throwing bricks through the windows of gay businesses.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: Unfortunately there is no "of course" about it. It's the sort of lie you would tell.
quote: I don't believe that's true. People who challenge Christian dominance in some communities can be subjected to some pretty nasty harassment.
quote: Unfortunately that's only sometimes the case. Mob violence doesn't need the authorities to lead it.
quote: That's an oversimplification. Not that your actions are Biblical anyway. But the reason that you can be find is that the USA was founded as a secular state and there are still judges with an eye for the law and justice. If you look you can find plenty of "Christian" abuses. And what about the big fuss over hate crimes legislation ?
quote: I'll take that as an admission that you intend to resort to violence, since you're one of the most hate-filled people I've ever met.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: ROFL ! That's so meta! You're projecting projection ! Just to remind you, I'm not the one demanding the right to discriminate, you are.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18047 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: Your lack of self-awareness is truly amazing.
quote: Odd how you can't find this "BIBLICAL" viewpoint in the Bible, isn't it ?
quote: Of course you aren't being punished for "having a viewpoint". But once the principle of anti-discrimination legislation is accepted, justice demands that gays receive that protection. But you don't discuss that, either.
quote: Viciously slandering people is generally a poor way to convert them to your point of view.
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