Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

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One reason men are the head of the home is the mood related problems some woman are known to experience at their time of the month. As women get older they experience menopause mood problems due to hormone related problems.

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Well, men have hormone-related mood problems all month long, not just part of the month, and as men get older they experience andropause, so how does that relate to wives needing to be led by anyone?

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If a woman has an historectomy is it not much harder to control mood related problems even with hormonal medication. I personally would not want a woman pastor cause of the mood of the woman might flip over something trivial. But I'll grant you that its never trivial from a moody womans point of view.

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Yeah.Men NEVER get all hormonal and testoteroned-up and "flip out".No, that NEVER happens.

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Thankfully there is holistic natural compounding pharmacy horomones for the suffering lady that had an historectomy (more natural e3 estrogen less e2 etc...) The problem is the mood problems of the woman not the mood of the man. This is one reason why the woman is not the head of the house and should keep quite in the church.

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Where does the Bible talk about hormones?

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P.S. However Christ is the head of the church and the husband is the head of the Marriage. However both are one in Christ in a Christian union, etc...

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Actually, the Bible says that the Husband is the head of the wife.So, men are gods compared to women?It's nice to know that women are considered second class in Christianity.

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I agree a man testostrone makes a man more agressive the reason in a family unit the man wears the pants unless perhaps you have bi-polar issues then I'd might conceed that your wife might need to wear the pants.

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Why does anyone have to "wear the pants"?Why does there have to be a leader and a follower at all?Why not an equal partnership. Like a friendship. Between adults.

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P.S. I agree as long as the man is the head no reason the women should not share in the family decisions.

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But there is no reason she needs to, either, right?She could be shut out ant it would still be perfectly OK?

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The biblical family unit is for the husband to respect his wife by wearing the pants in the family.

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If you had a friend who always told you what you could or couldn't do, always made all the decisions about the stuff you did and the places you went, and the money you spent, would you think that this friend respected you as an adult?

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Perfect communion of equals: different in ability, talents and skills - but made with the intention that our relative strengths would be put to work in order to serve the needs of the other.

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Does that mean that all women have certain abilities, talents and skills that are explusive only to women, and that all men have certain abilities, talents and skills that are exlusive only to men?

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Just to add - I think you're right to ask the question, because all too often the idea of relative strengths or expertise is used to set up the idea that there are relative strengths between men and women, as though you could boil down two groups of 3 billion people each to a limited set of characteristics.

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That's exactly the point I was getting at in my reply to iano.Exactly and precisely.

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Did you ever watch the wife swapping show.

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No.I find the entire concept completely repulsive and sensationalistic and voeuristic.The exposure and humiliation people will willingly undergo for the money is incredible.But this reply did not answer any of my questions, Golfer. In fact, it has nothing at all to do with my post.Here it is again.Perhaps you could reply to my points this time?

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Why do Americans vote for a president, you need someone to make decisions.

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Again, why can't two people make decisions together?

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Because as your brain developed you became a woman.

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Are you saying that females do not make good leaders?That is not supported by any evidence at all.Unless you know of some...

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The man is also the stronger vessel.

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Says you.What does physical strenght have to do with ladership skills? Please explain.

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It does not work

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Yes it does.For example, that is how my marriage works, and the marriage of most of my firends work this way too.Since fundamentalists as a group have a higher divorce rate than the group I belong to, maybe that should tell you something.

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If your husband is a christian then be the wife, let him be the man, but help him make good decisions, be a teamplayer, etc...

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We make decisions together, because I am an intelligent adult with just as much say as what happens in our marriage and in my life as my husband.I am not some child who needs parenting from a husband.Anyone who wants a submissive wife really just wants a servant child in a woman's body.And that is sick.

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Depends? You married the guy to have an raise a family.

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Wrong.I married my husband to share my life with him as a friend and lover.

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If you get a job, are you going to tell the supervisor to take a hike, or are you going to be on the same team.

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Are you saying that a wife is her husband's employee?

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In a family like in a buisness someone needs to make the final decision,

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No, they don't.Sure, it's easier to always be able to overrule one's wife and get one's own way, but it's disrespectful and is not treating one's wife as a fully adult person.It means that you are acting more as a parent to your wife rather than treating her like an adult. That is disrespectful.Would you keep hanging out with a friend if he always had to have his own way when you both disagreed about something? Would you think it unfair if he told you that you HAD to submit to his will when you disagreed?

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like even the president of the USA (he consults with his cabinet, etc...), then he makes the final decision. If you look at an arcade room over 90% are men cause they are better at making decisions.

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An arcade room? Video games?They all made the dumb descision to waste their money on video games.

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why do you think we shave our legs? they really want a kinky freak in the body of a child. and with the mind of a child. little kids will do whatever they're told. i guess that's why they make great lovers.

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it's fun when we agree. it doesn't happen much, but boy is it fun.

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Right on.

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In the area of marriage it was a CORRECTIVE to the frequent tyrannical abuse of wives by husbands that prevailed in the pagan world, and in fact still does in many parts of the world.

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Do you mean "pagan" like in goddess worship?

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There is a persistance in viewing headship as better or more powerful than followership.

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That's because it is, by definition, more powerful.That's why an equal partnership in which two people share responsibility for the decisions and neither one of them gets to completely abdicate nor take on all responsibility for descisions is the way adults interact with each other.The Biblical model is archaic. It is time for Christians to stop treating women as though they were still considered property.Is it appropriate and healthy for two adult people in a committed romantic relationship to have a "leader and follower" type of relationship, in which the man is always the leader and the woman is always the follower?In what way is such a relationship one of equals? In what way can the husband not be seen as a parental figure to the wife? In what way can the wife not be seen as childlike?

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Persistance in thinking the head role is the juicy one.

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It isn't juicy in this situation, although many men think of it that way.It is sick.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-14-2006 04:34 PM

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We still have it today with male misuse of position with respect to females and female seeking to attain a position not intended for them.

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So, you do admit, then, that the male's position is more powerful, since you say they "misuse" it, and clearly most men are not "seeking to attain" the position of the female, since it is less powerful?Since when are healthy adult relationships based upon such things, as they seem to be in Fundamentalist marriages?Would you ever tolerate a friend who always had the power to ovverruled your wishes when you disagreed with each other?

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It may sound somewhat glib to say that the challenge for a man is to avoid misuse of position and move towards servanthood and the challenge for a woman is to accept servanthood and avoid seeking a position not open to her.

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Here's a thought.Why not have an equal partnership in which neither party is "in charge of" nor "in submission to" the other?You know.Like a grown up relationship.Let me ask you something, iano.Do you think that women can be the leaders of companies, countries, and militaries? Do you believe that they can be just as effective as men in any leadership role?

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It's just the generic term used for the entire nonChristian world

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Jews are Pagan.Got it.

I love pagans, too!LOL

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There may be problems encountered in so far a men are (un)willing to be led by a woman but in terms of intelligence and decision -making etc there is nothing to separate them. I think men and women differ in make up but that a womans toolkit can achieve as good (or better) result as man is I think inarguable.

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OK, so how is a little girl who is raised to believe the above about herself, her abilities, and her equality with men supposed to turn around and do this to be a good Christian woman?:

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No woman must feel herself subject to a man in the sense that she has to submit to his will/choice. If she does it it is because she choses to assume that position.

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According to you, a woman can be a captain of industry, a leader of nations, and can accomplish anything she sets her mind to, except that if she wants to be a good Christian wife, to have a good Christian marriage, to follow God's will, she must "choose" to "assume a submissive position" to her husband's will.The perfect no-win situation."Choose" to submit to be a good Christian wife and have a good Chriatian marriage.That's not a choice, iano. That's coersion and a bald threat that is a baldfaced effort to keep women in their place as second fiddle to men.It's time for Christianity to stop treating women like they need a leader.Why do you think a woman always needs to be led, iano? If she can be the leader of the free world, she certainly deserves to be treated as an equal parner in a marriage.A woman is not a child, nor a posession, and as such does not need to be led. A husband is not a parent nor a slave owner and as such has no place leading another adult person.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-17-2006 11:43 PM

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I gave an example earlier of a child + life threatening/life enhancing surgical operation. And that neither father or mother agree on whether or not to have it done. What does your model of marriage suggest they do? (the only clear answer I have had so far to the question is Crash's - who said they should divorce)

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Well, it depends upon the couple. In a real partnership, it is not unusual for one or the other partner to willingly abdicate a difficult decision to the other because they are requested to make it. There is no "default assumption" that it is either of the partners' place to overrule the other's will.That is not to say that situations like the one you mention don't happen. In a equal partnership, they keep negotiating until they come to a decision they can both live with, even though one of the two may be less happy with the decision. It isn't easy, it isn't quick, but it is respectful.That's how grown ups in a committed relationship deal with such decisions.Why, in a "good Christian marriage", is the automatic default that the husband make the call, which always overrules his wife? Every time. That is a clear power imbalance, iano, and you know it. It is easier, and it is quicker, but it isn't respectful of the wife's status as a fully adult human being.You say that power issues have no place in a marriage, but a "good Christian marriage", according to you, is set up with a clear power hierarchy from the start.If the husband always makes the call in cases where the husband and wife disagree, then he has more power in the marriage, even if the wife willingly abdicates her will. That's clear as a bell.

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It has to do less with womans submission to man/man sacrificing to woman and more to do with submission/sacrifice to God. Each Christian will face difficulties obeying what God demands of them but is aided by God in understanding why he does it they way he does it. Even if they weren't it doesn't matter - a believers role is not to question God (even thought we do) but to do as he says as best they can (even though we don't).

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Like I said. It's the perfect no-win situation for girls and women."Yes, go out into the world and lead, become anything at all you want to be, consider yourself completely equal to and sometimes better than any man in any task, but you'd better know your place when you get married!. Should you and your husband disagree, your opinion isn't as important as his in the eyes of God becaue you are only a woman. If you want to have a good Christian marriage and go to heaven, you must assume a submissive position in the hierarchical arrangement of your marriage."

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You say "good Christian marriage". It seems as if you sneer the words out.

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Well, an arrangement in which women are treated as less than adult is pretty insulting to women. It's sneer-worthy.

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But you make the unwarranted presumption that a God blessed marriage is somehow going to be less rewarding for the woman concerned than would Captaining industry.

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Gee, being treated like I am a child who's will, when there is disagreement in the marriage, is always to be considered less important than my husband's, compared to being treated like an adult by other adults. Which one is more attractive to me? Hmmm, let me think.Also, considering that your marriage model results in markedly higher divorce rates than my marriage model, I think we have a clear indication of which type of marriage is more satisfying for women.

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Nothing can improve on life than have God blessing it for you.

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Since when is being treated like a child by another adult that one is supposed to be in a romantic relationship with one of God's "blessings"?I mean, a man who wants a submissive wife is just wanting a maleable, controllable child in a woman's body. That's sick.

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This might seem unsatisfactory to you but realise it's like me trying to explain to a blind person what the colour red is like. Your not a believer and you have no objective clue as to what it means to know God personally. It seems to me that until you do you are not in a position to weigh up the relative merits of things.

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Hey, it's your lot who gets divorced so much, not my group. If I want tips on having a successful marriage, I don't think I'm going to follow the model that leads to more divorce. That would be dumb.

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Do you accept that it is the very difficulty of pregnancy with its sickness and worry and self-sacrifice and at the end of it all...pain - that results in the potential for a mothers bond being uniquely special with her child. Should a man shake his fist at God because he doesn't get this privilege.

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Yeah, and I hear men complaining all the time how they can't get pregnant and give birth.You are reaching here, iano.

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An offer which she would, I imagine, refuse. And there is not the slightest thing the man could do about it. How powerful is that eh?

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Would she have refused 1000 years ago? What do you suppose would have happened to her if she had back then? How much power did she have? Why didn't she have that power?What about 500 years ago?250 years ago?100 years ago?50 years ago?40 years ago?As women have slowly hacked their way out of the jumgle of male oppression over the last several millenia, it has NOT been with the support of the Christian religion in very large part.It has been IN SPITE of Christianity and other Abrahamic religions that women are considered fully human in modern society, iano. Christian leaders have nearly always decried any progress that gave power or equal status to women of even the most basic sort as being sinful, or likely to lead to sin and the destruction of Christian society.It still seeks to keep women in their lower status place in many respects, as you are promoting yourself, in this thread.It is the greater social women's rights movement that has forced Christianity to change, not the other way around.You are still about 100 years behind the times with all of this "submission" nonsense, but that is just par for the course.