Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

*reads post*AAAAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAAAH*several minutes later, when the Rock Hound finally recovers*Now, on to actual point by point debate.

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A friend of mine happily married (4 kids) (good Catholics) till his wife reached menopause. Like over something trivial (like you said over something she said he was doing). He said she just went crazy like over something she thought he shouldn't of said, the way he said it, did it, why didn't, etc...

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See, we have this thing called HRT now, which means that menopause isn't the pain-in-the-ass it used to me.Anyway, by this reckoning men with manic depression should submit as well, because they're obviously as unstable, if not more so.

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Imagine trying to debate with your woman gone hormonal, shouldn't of said it, the way you said it, etc... Just count your blessings cause it won't matter what you say or how you say it.

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Imagine trying to debate with a man high on testosterone - how often has that worked...Bar fights across the world, Golfer - they ain't started by women.

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I agree a man testostrone makes a man more agressive the reason in a family unit the man wears the pants unless perhaps you have bi-polar issues then I'd might conceed that your wife might need to wear the pants.

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So... because a man is more aggressive he's obviously more qualified to be a leader?(This had me on the floor by the way.)Where oh where do you get your definition of leadership?? Jesus was a leader, and a damn good one - and is known for being loving, gentle, forgiving... wow, all the qualities NOT associated with men on testosterone!Who else... Mahatma Gandhi, who inspired people with his courage and wisdom - was obviously qualified to be the leader of his people because he was male and aggressive.Closer to home - Mary Robinson, former President of Ireland, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights - obviously not qualified to be a leader because she's not male and agressive.

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I agree as long as the man is the head no reason the women should not share in the family decisions. The biblical family unit is for the husband to respect his wife by wearing the pants in the family.

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So... as long as the man is in control, there's no reason the woman shouldn't share in the family decisions.She won't be making them, but hey, she can "share" in them!Do you see how dumb this looks? If the wife is sharing in the decisions, having her input influence them, then the man isn't the head - it's a partnership between equals because the decisions are made by them both.Your bible doesn't ask that women be subservient. Jesus certainly didn't ask. I'm prepared to bet hard cash that the reason fundie divorce rates are higher than non-fundies is this half-assed notion that women are somehow lesser beings and need the guiding hand of a man - and let's face it, that's what it boils down to no matter what way you want to spin it.My $0.02 (and FYI, I would never want to be in that kind of relationship.){edited to fix my appalling grammar}This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-10-2006 11:25 AM

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"Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."

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Jesus picked men to be apostles, why did he not include a woman. The bible talks of women that were prophetests. The gifts of the spirit are not just for the men. Mother Angelica another example of no male or female in christ. She was baptised in the spirit before starting her television ministry. She however is not a priest but I don't here her speaking out of place in church. Mother Theresa too, was never a pastor but subservient to the good of the church.

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Whoa there Trigger, I'm not disputing that in some places the Christian churches are OK with women. And Jesus lived in a patriarchal society, so expecting him to be completely oblivious to it is a bit much. What I'm disputing is the whole marraige schtick today where they say that women must bow down to men, when your holy book and indeed your messiah are oddly silent on the subject.

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The issue is not that the woman is not an equal member of the family of God but that the man is the head of the marriage.

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Golfer, I don't care if your church thinks that women are equal members of the family of god or whatever. That's a faith thing. We're talking about something practical here, i.e. a marraige - where your church says that women are NOT equal.

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In nature the male is dominant the lesser males that challenge this dominance are put in place.

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Must... resist... urge... to snigger...Eh, this has been refuted, better leave it alone.

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The man in the marriage is not supposed to be effeminate to his children or to his spouse(this is biblical)(its not natural)etc... The children and the wife need the husband not to be effeminate or the children will challenge the mans authority and end up wearing the pants etc...

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What you're saying here is that the wife and children need, in essence, the guiding hand of the husband. How utterly demeaning and arrogant... I note that you sure as hell don't say WHY, just that the alternative is somehow "not natural".Hurray for unsupported assertations!

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I have to control myself at time, cause of some #@%#@ hitting a golf ball into my space. I've been considered a hot head at times, but you learn to control these issues. Its the christian thing to do, not to get into fist a cuffs over #@$@ like over a simple game of golf or whatever, etc...

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So... when a guy gets hormonal and feels like hitting things, he "learns how to control these issues". When a woman gets hormonal, she needs to be controlled.Great double standard there. {Fixed a quote box. - AM}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-14-2006 01:42 PM

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"Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."

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Perhaps the ladies really should not be allowed to vote. But sadly as it be they have this right and likely basing their vote off emotions, etc...

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...I cannot believe that you just said that.Men are just as likely to be dumb when it comes to politics, maybe more so - on account of all that testosterone messing up their heads. Obviously they can't make good decisions on who to vote for because they're so aggressive and reckless, right?Hey if we're going for sweeping generalisations, let's go crazy!

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Because as your brain developed you became a woman. The man is also the stronger vessel.

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Hmm, let's ponder this statement.Stronger physically? Not a chance, women tend to be tougher - as far as I know, it's because a woman's body has to handle the trauma of childbirth.Stronger psychologically? Again, as far as I know, women have far better coping mechanisms than men. Know what demographic group has the highest rates of suicide in Ireland? Men aged 18 - 25.Stronger spiritually? Well, we're not arguing over this point.So I don't know where you're getting this idea of men being "stronger". Maybe you're using a system of rating I'm not familiar with.

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Why not an equal partnership. Like a friendship. Between adults.

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It does not work the woman continually needs to ask for directions. However your on the same team, you add input for what the kids need, you need, to help your family. You need to be the wife, not the man, etc...

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Excuse me? Since when do you speak for one half of the human race? You mean to tell us that ALL women continually ask for directions from their husbands? What are you basing that on, other than your own vague ideas?

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You married the guy to have an raise a family.

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I'm assuming you're saying this because you suddenly have some mystical insight into another person's thoughts and feelings even though you've never met and, in fact, you know nothing about their life and situation.

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If you married the man to watch television all day, to do your own thing then your the one being disrespectful.

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So, a wife is disrespectful if she decides to do something for herself. And if a husband does it... I detect a double standard here again.

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If you get a job, are you going to tell the supervisor to take a hike, or are you going to be on the same team. In a family like in a buisness someone needs to make the final decision, like even the president of the USA (he consults with his cabinet, etc...), then he makes the final decision.

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...Because a business, with a lot of different people fulfilling specific roles for a short time and they can leave whenever they like, is the same as a single contract between two people who can have any number of different roles and that is supposed to be for life.I also have to note that in a business gender doesn't determine who is most capable of leading. Here's a personal anecdote - I work for Apple, and the top management of the entire European division is nearly exclusively women.

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If you look at an arcade room over 90% are men cause they are better at making decisions.

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I'm confused.How exactly does playing computer games determine how good anyone is at making decisions?Is this your crazy moon-logic again?

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The woman brain needs to ask for directions, they are not able to process as well as the man (Do you like to ask for directions?) If so your likely a woman, etc... The estrogen affected how the brain developed. I'm suspecting its not just the physical edge but this mental edge why the woman needs the man to be the head of the house, but the man needs the womans to be on the same team, etc...

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Oh get over it. All you're doing at this stage is tossing out the same daft assertations that were refuted several posts ago.Women don't need men to be anything. They don't need to be controlled, don't need guidance, don't need to follow-the-leader - they might need a little understanding but hey, the same can be said of men.Women are human beings in their own right, not space aliens or animals!{edited to fix major format problems}This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-12-2006 01:03 PM

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"Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."

*falls over laughing*Man oh man oh man, you couldn't make this stuff up!Ok, on to the point by point discussion...

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The man being the stronger vessel is supposed to have a servants heart like toward the woman. But the woman is supposed to have a servants heart toward the family. When you think your a slave, your missing the whole point of a fundemental marriage. When you take on a job, your a slave (bondsman) but in a marriage your to be of service to your mate.

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You keep parroting on about this "stronger vessel" thing - and unless I've been hallucinating, I think I discussed this is my previous post.How's about you address the concerns I raised there?

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You wouldn't want to deprive your man of sex (I take that back you probably use to manipulate the man).

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If you can't lay off the snide remarks in a debate, you're not worth debating with.Brennakimi's been suspended for a personal attack. I'd suspend you for the same thing, if I was acting in admin mode in this thread.

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In a marriage you need to have a servants heart to love the man, and the man to serve you too in love. Its not about being a slave but a servant. Its about being mature adults not immature about the needs of the marriage.

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Since when does a mature adult need to be lead around like a child by another mature adult?Since when does ANY marraige need one partner to be lead by the other?

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If the man is busting himself for your family he's serving you all with his labor, he being the greater vessel. If he comes home exhausted and you've done nothing all day and then whine (complain) then what are you serving the husband.

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Its really not all that hard, you've got Micro-wave, tv dinners, washing machines, Cars, dishwasher, vacuum cleaners, canned food, etc... In the older days they had to everything by hand, you really have nothing to complain about. Right?

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What if the husband is out of work and the wife is supporting him? Wouldn't that make her the greater vessel? What if both are working, or neither? Assuming that there is only one version of a happy family is totally naive.So women have nothing to complain about because they have modern technology helping them to be unpaid maids?No possible issues with their self-esteem, and worth as a human being, that arise from knowing that they can't overrule their husband's decisions?

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Its not about a leader follower relationship but about two mature people realizing its by serving one another that we show your love one to the other. Your leading by example to your children and those that you have the honor to serve.

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Bullshit.Two mature adults should be capable of compromise, not of one having to submit to the other when they can't agree. All that shows to kids is that wifes are supposed to be powerless sub-humans - and you better believe that treating anyone as any less than an equal is treating them as sub-human.

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The mans the head, your next, then the children. The children ask you, and your not the head because your the softie (estrogen) so need to have the requests filtered through the husband. Dads are not supposed to be effeminate (soft)(tetosterone right?) so the kids will naturally want to deal with the mother. If the mother bends too much to the kids demands then shes being disrespectful to the marriage.

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...Are you aware that there are marraiges without children? That some women are not effeminate or "softies"? That, in fact, this is an archaeic stereotype of a family that is largely useless in the modern world? That you seem to be seeing every marraige in black and white terms when most are NOT THAT SIMPLE?I like iano's response better, at least he's honest that you're only following your god's orders.Oh and by the way, I've posted twice before to you and gotten ignored.

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"Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."

The Golfer's been suspended, so I suppose this is largely irrelevent, but hey...

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If your more concerned about self than your spouse, then your not a mature adult. Right?

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...Which has nothing to do with what I asked, to whit: Since when does a mature adult need to be lead around like a child by another mature adult?What does selfishness have to do with being respected as a person in your own right?

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Brennakimi already said she would always put self ahead of the husband. I don't think Brennakimi should be suspended for getting huffy, she could of at least agreed that she would never use sex as a power tool. In a fundemental marriage what does the woman think, is it appropriate to deny a mate sex to get her way, or spite(punishment), etc...

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What the hell makes you think that ANY man has a right to get sex from a woman, even if she's his wife?Wives have sex with their husbands because they love them and want them to be happy, and they enjoy it too. Anything else is a veiled form of prostitution or at worst marital rape, as far as I'm concerned, and thinking of it turns my stomach.Let's make this clear - HER body. HER choice. NOT his. The reverse is true as well.

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An Example: A friend of mine had a wife that used this power play and it was devastating. They slept in the same bed 3 years without sex is this your understanding of the perfect marriage. It begs the question is rape in marriage the bigger crime. No my friend didn't rape his wife cause to him the issue was the kids.

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So what? Did your friend never consider, in all those three years, that maybe there was something seriously wrong with his marraige if his wife was doing this?For future reference, my idea of a perfect marraige has only one criterion - that both partners are happy, end of story. So don't go getting half-assed notions of what I think when you know nothing about me.

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Here's a link that says God made the woman for the man, the man was not made for the woman.

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Don't care. This is about the practical applications of what your god said, not what he did or didn't say.As far as I'm concerned your god is a jackass and a lunatic, so don't bother preaching at me about him.

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In TV sitcoms, it's usually the woman who uses sex to manipulate her man. "When you use sex as a power tool, it interferes with the pleasure and togetherness it could bring to the relationship," Pitta says. "The beauty of the sexual experience is terribly impeded."

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AAAAAhahhaahahaha - because sit-coms are a perfect representation of reality? Give me a break.

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I think most of your other responses are not about mature adults sharing in responsibilities. However in the modern world I agree both the husbands and the wifes are likely behaving more like spoiled children not understanding that getting ones way is not what a fundemental marriage is about. Its about serving the other a concept alien to both sexes in the modern world(its doing a 180). Its not alien to a Christian Fundemental Marriage cause a Christian marriage foundation is not based on selfishness(but Christ), etc...

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Bullshit. Again, since when do you speak for everyone in the modern world? Who are you to call them spoiled children? I didn't suggest that, so you're not agreeing with anything but your own idiot notions, Golfer.There are people with messed up marraiges who are Christian, and who are not. There are people with great marraiges who are Christian and who are not. The notion of sharing and respect is not alien to those who have great marraiges, regardless of whether they believe in the Christian god or Osiris or Thor or whatever.iano is right, and at least he's honest - a fundy Christian marraige isn't based on what's best for the husband and wife, it's based on the ancient writings of a book 2000 years old which is supposedly what your god wants.Even what he wants is something that just isn't good for the marraige.{edited to fix quote box}This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-14-2006 02:23 PM

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"Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."