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Author | Topic: Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, men have hormone-related mood problems all month long, not just part of the month, and as men get older they experience andropause, so how does that relate to wives needing to be led by anyone?
quote: Yeah. Men NEVER get all hormonal and testoteroned-up and "flip out". No, that NEVER happens.
quote: Where does the Bible talk about hormones?
quote: Actually, the Bible says that the Husband is the head of the wife. So, men are gods compared to women? It's nice to know that women are considered second class in Christianity.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Why does anyone have to "wear the pants"? Why does there have to be a leader and a follower at all? Why not an equal partnership. Like a friendship. Between adults.
quote: But there is no reason she needs to, either, right? She could be shut out ant it would still be perfectly OK?
quote: If you had a friend who always told you what you could or couldn't do, always made all the decisions about the stuff you did and the places you went, and the money you spent, would you think that this friend respected you as an adult?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Does that mean that all women have certain abilities, talents and skills that are explusive only to women, and that all men have certain abilities, talents and skills that are exlusive only to men?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's exactly the point I was getting at in my reply to iano. Exactly and precisely.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. I find the entire concept completely repulsive and sensationalistic and voeuristic. The exposure and humiliation people will willingly undergo for the money is incredible. But this reply did not answer any of my questions, Golfer. In fact, it has nothing at all to do with my post. Here it is again. Perhaps you could reply to my points this time?
quote: Why does anyone have to "wear the pants"? Why does there have to be a leader and a follower at all? Why not an equal partnership. Like a friendship. Between adults.
quote: But there is no reason she needs to, either, right? She could be shut out ant it would still be perfectly OK?
quote: If you had a friend who always told you what you could or couldn't do, always made all the decisions about the stuff you did and the places you went, and the money you spent, would you think that this friend respected you as an adult?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Why does anyone have to "wear the pants"? quote: Again, why can't two people make decisions together?
Why does there have to be a leader and a follower at all? quote: Are you saying that females do not make good leaders? That is not supported by any evidence at all. Unless you know of some...
quote: Says you. What does physical strenght have to do with ladership skills? Please explain.
Why not an equal partnership. Like a friendship. Between adults. quote: Yes it does. For example, that is how my marriage works, and the marriage of most of my firends work this way too. Since fundamentalists as a group have a higher divorce rate than the group I belong to, maybe that should tell you something.
quote: We make decisions together, because I am an intelligent adult with just as much say as what happens in our marriage and in my life as my husband. I am not some child who needs parenting from a husband. Anyone who wants a submissive wife really just wants a servant child in a woman's body. And that is sick.
If you had a friend who always told you what you could or couldn't do, always made all the decisions about the stuff you did and the places you went, and the money you spent, would you think that this friend respected you as an adult? quote: Wrong. I married my husband to share my life with him as a friend and lover.
quote: Are you saying that a wife is her husband's employee?
quote: No, they don't. Sure, it's easier to always be able to overrule one's wife and get one's own way, but it's disrespectful and is not treating one's wife as a fully adult person. It means that you are acting more as a parent to your wife rather than treating her like an adult. That is disrespectful. Would you keep hanging out with a friend if he always had to have his own way when you both disagreed about something? Would you think it unfair if he told you that you HAD to submit to his will when you disagreed?
quote: An arcade room? Video games? They all made the dumb descision to waste their money on video games.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Right on.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Do you mean "pagan" like in goddess worship?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That's because it is, by definition, more powerful. That's why an equal partnership in which two people share responsibility for the decisions and neither one of them gets to completely abdicate nor take on all responsibility for descisions is the way adults interact with each other. The Biblical model is archaic. It is time for Christians to stop treating women as though they were still considered property. Is it appropriate and healthy for two adult people in a committed romantic relationship to have a "leader and follower" type of relationship, in which the man is always the leader and the woman is always the follower? In what way is such a relationship one of equals? In what way can the husband not be seen as a parental figure to the wife? In what way can the wife not be seen as childlike?
quote: It isn't juicy in this situation, although many men think of it that way. It is sick. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-14-2006 04:34 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, you do admit, then, that the male's position is more powerful, since you say they "misuse" it, and clearly most men are not "seeking to attain" the position of the female, since it is less powerful? Since when are healthy adult relationships based upon such things, as they seem to be in Fundamentalist marriages? Would you ever tolerate a friend who always had the power to ovverruled your wishes when you disagreed with each other?
quote: Here's a thought. Why not have an equal partnership in which neither party is "in charge of" nor "in submission to" the other? You know. Like a grown up relationship. Let me ask you something, iano. Do you think that women can be the leaders of companies, countries, and militaries? Do you believe that they can be just as effective as men in any leadership role?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Jews are Pagan. Got it.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
I love pagans, too!
LOL
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK, so how is a little girl who is raised to believe the above about herself, her abilities, and her equality with men supposed to turn around and do this to be a good Christian woman?:
quote: According to you, a woman can be a captain of industry, a leader of nations, and can accomplish anything she sets her mind to, except that if she wants to be a good Christian wife, to have a good Christian marriage, to follow God's will, she must "choose" to "assume a submissive position" to her husband's will. The perfect no-win situation. "Choose" to submit to be a good Christian wife and have a good Chriatian marriage. That's not a choice, iano. That's coersion and a bald threat that is a baldfaced effort to keep women in their place as second fiddle to men. It's time for Christianity to stop treating women like they need a leader. Why do you think a woman always needs to be led, iano? If she can be the leader of the free world, she certainly deserves to be treated as an equal parner in a marriage. A woman is not a child, nor a posession, and as such does not need to be led. A husband is not a parent nor a slave owner and as such has no place leading another adult person. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-17-2006 11:43 PM
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, it depends upon the couple. In a real partnership, it is not unusual for one or the other partner to willingly abdicate a difficult decision to the other because they are requested to make it. There is no "default assumption" that it is either of the partners' place to overrule the other's will. That is not to say that situations like the one you mention don't happen. In a equal partnership, they keep negotiating until they come to a decision they can both live with, even though one of the two may be less happy with the decision. It isn't easy, it isn't quick, but it is respectful. That's how grown ups in a committed relationship deal with such decisions. Why, in a "good Christian marriage", is the automatic default that the husband make the call, which always overrules his wife? Every time. That is a clear power imbalance, iano, and you know it. It is easier, and it is quicker, but it isn't respectful of the wife's status as a fully adult human being. You say that power issues have no place in a marriage, but a "good Christian marriage", according to you, is set up with a clear power hierarchy from the start. If the husband always makes the call in cases where the husband and wife disagree, then he has more power in the marriage, even if the wife willingly abdicates her will. That's clear as a bell.
OK, so how is a little girl who is raised to believe the above about herself, her abilities, and her equality with men supposed to turn around and do this to be a good Christian woman? quote: Like I said. It's the perfect no-win situation for girls and women. "Yes, go out into the world and lead, become anything at all you want to be, consider yourself completely equal to and sometimes better than any man in any task, but you'd better know your place when you get married!. Should you and your husband disagree, your opinion isn't as important as his in the eyes of God becaue you are only a woman. If you want to have a good Christian marriage and go to heaven, you must assume a submissive position in the hierarchical arrangement of your marriage."
quote: Well, an arrangement in which women are treated as less than adult is pretty insulting to women. It's sneer-worthy.
quote: Gee, being treated like I am a child who's will, when there is disagreement in the marriage, is always to be considered less important than my husband's, compared to being treated like an adult by other adults. Which one is more attractive to me? Hmmm, let me think. Also, considering that your marriage model results in markedly higher divorce rates than my marriage model, I think we have a clear indication of which type of marriage is more satisfying for women.
quote: Since when is being treated like a child by another adult that one is supposed to be in a romantic relationship with one of God's "blessings"? I mean, a man who wants a submissive wife is just wanting a maleable, controllable child in a woman's body. That's sick.
quote: Hey, it's your lot who gets divorced so much, not my group. If I want tips on having a successful marriage, I don't think I'm going to follow the model that leads to more divorce. That would be dumb.
quote: Yeah, and I hear men complaining all the time how they can't get pregnant and give birth. You are reaching here, iano.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Don't think, don't question just DO AS I TELL YOU. Oh, if you have a question it's because God's Wisdom is greater than yours and God told me to tell you because you aren't good enough to understand yourself. In other words I KNOW MORE THAN YOU and you are equal to me if it makes you feel better, but I'm in charge and you DO as YOU are TOLD! quote: Would she have refused 1000 years ago? What do you suppose would have happened to her if she had back then? How much power did she have? Why didn't she have that power? What about 500 years ago? 250 years ago? 100 years ago? 50 years ago? 40 years ago? As women have slowly hacked their way out of the jumgle of male oppression over the last several millenia, it has NOT been with the support of the Christian religion in very large part. It has been IN SPITE of Christianity and other Abrahamic religions that women are considered fully human in modern society, iano. Christian leaders have nearly always decried any progress that gave power or equal status to women of even the most basic sort as being sinful, or likely to lead to sin and the destruction of Christian society. It still seeks to keep women in their lower status place in many respects, as you are promoting yourself, in this thread. It is the greater social women's rights movement that has forced Christianity to change, not the other way around. You are still about 100 years behind the times with all of this "submission" nonsense, but that is just par for the course.
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