Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.

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Hi Schraff, here are some definitions of "christian" from the dictionary.

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Is that an objective enough source for you?

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Well no, not really, sorry.See, dictionaries only describe the current and common meanings of words as people use them.Languages evolve, and that's why we get a new edition of dictionaries every so often. Word meanings change.I am certain that as you define "Christian" today, millions of people who called themselves "Christians" in the past wouldn't qualify.However, that is only because the definition has changed.It seems that the definition of "Christian" changes in response to the greater cultural sensibilities of the times.So, nobody can claim that they are "true" christians and the people in the past weren't because it's all relative who is a Christian and who isn't, because the definition has changed over the centuries.Even today, you some Protestant Christians who don't consider Catholics as Christian at all, and some who do.So, it seems like a pretty meaningless term in the end.

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In other words, Schraff can stick all the broken coke bottles up your ass she wants as you scream for mercy, and yet if she simply acknowledges Jesus as Christ, then she is a true Christian.

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LOL, but...eeeeeewwww.

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Ah, but if I only looked at one translation and one commentary, I would not be a diligent student, would I? And if G.H.S. does not make it knowable to me, then I am only learning subjectively.

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Stop with the "subjective" lunacy.Every theology or philosophy is subjective by definition, because there is no way to test theology or philosophy.OTOH, since you cannot know every interpretation possible, you cannot have perfect knowledge, therefore you cannot know for 100% certainty that your preferred interpretation is the right one.Before you say "The Holy Spirit tells me which ones are right", how am I to tell the difference between all the people who say this, yet got radically different answers from the Holy Spirit?How do I tell who is right when the only thing any of them have to support their assertion is "I feel inside of me that I am correct."?

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Must every professing 'Christian' be perfect for Christianity to be valid? Christians are people too, and easily decline into reversionism. You choose to look to the poor examples of Christianity to make your judgements about it because you have already rejected it.

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No, I have known many wonderful Christian people, and no, I do not expect Christians to be perfect for Christianity to be valid.However, Christianity seems to me to be hypocritical, in that it speaks of peace and love and humbleness, and rejecting worldliness out of one side of it's mouth and yet so very few Christians seem to be loving, humble, or peaceful, nor do they reject material wealth.

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Are you certain of what you believe?

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Not entirely, no.I'm an Agnostic, so I'm a doubter by trade.

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Do think that humanism may be flawed?

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I know that it is flawed. The thing is, I believe it is flawed the least of any philosopy I have ever come across.

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Do you ever entertain the idea that Christianity might be right?

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Well, no more than I entertain the idea that Zoroastoism, or Hinduism, or any other religion might be right.All of them have the same sort of evidence to support them.Any one, or all of them could be right, but there's no way to tell how or why any of them is the right one.Tell me, hangdawg, how did you first hear about Buddhism?

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Is this a warning that I will make poor choices if I do not reject God and his Word?

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No, it is a warning that you might lose your faith.The more rigid and dogmatic one's religion is, especially in how literaly it requires you to believe the Bible, the more you must abandon reason and logic and blind yourself to the truth of nature in order to maintain your faith.

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God of course. By the Bible I learn more about Him and can better respect and love Him and also learn how to live righteously.

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So, do you believe the Bible can be in error, or that translational errors and errors in interpretation can be made?

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If you're insinuating that only ignorant morons or stubborn neurotics uphold Christianity, you're sorely mistaken. People of all IQ's and education have been strong Christians.

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Of course, look at the Jesuits.However, it is very true that as education levels fall, superstitious beliefs rise, including literal interpretations of bible stories.Sorry, you just can't get around that fact.

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The reason humanism rises with an intellectual populace, is that people place more faith in themselves than in God. Human wisdom becomes a source of arrogance forbidding anyone to trust in anything besides themselves.

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Couldn't it be that people outgrow the need to belive in a myth?Do you believe in Santa Claus?Why or why not?

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So, when arguing for humanism: humans are mostly good and bad is what makes life fun and interesting...

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No.Humans are both bad and good, but our intellects allow us to make choices that are not harmful to others."Flaws" are not the same as "crimes committed".

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When arguing against God: God is mostly bad and all bad is despicable.

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Don't be silly.

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Oh really, so you believe that divorce, murder, money lust, power lust, arrogance, and churches having political power etc... and so forth are all fundamental principles of Christianity?

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Back then they certainly were.

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Didn't the Pope kind of make up his doctrine as he went along?

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...and this would be different from any other religious leader in all of history how, exactly?

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and didn't Henry kind of use whatever immoral means necessary to establish an heir to the throne? It seems like both had their own purposes in mind rather than God's.

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How do you know those weren't God's purposes?(Sounds pretty OT to me)How do you know that any religious leader's purposes are or are not God's?

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It is not hard to see that the Catholic church severely perverted Christianity in all its scheming back in the day.

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But that's what Christianity WAS at that time. That's what it meant to be Christian.OTOH, are you saying that Martin Luther wasn't a crazy corrupt, violent man?

I'd like this to be addressed, HD, please.

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RARELY is this the case.

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Um, this is ALWAYS the case.

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Usually it has been a monarchy or oligarchy or aristocracy or plutocracy that has decided what is good for societies as a whole. And when people do, they usually do not re-invent the wheel every time.

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Sure, if you are only limiting the definition of "society" to recent European nation states. Nation states are a very recent socio/political construct.Human civilization goes back a whole lot farther than that, and they have all had some form of general consensus of what is acceptable behavior of the members of the group.European style governments just built on what had been started amny thousands of years ago, thousands and thousands of years before there were any Jews or Jesus or Christians, or the idea of a monotheistic deity.

Yes, right, that's why religions are so important to many societies.It's one thing to try to convince a population that they should want to follow a code of behavior because it's good for everyone, but it's a lot easier to get people to believe that an all-powerful supernatural being, or many gods, cares how you act and will reward or punish you in direct reponse to one's behavior.

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Get the Holy Spirit and do some studying yourself. It's so easy. Christianity is an individual process of growth. It's not something you can depend on others for.

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Then why do you frequently bring up how there are so many other people who believe exactly the same as you?You have probably always been surrounded by lots and lots of people who believe as you do, probably especially your family.Your religion is Christianity because you were raised to believe it, just like most other Christians.Where one is born is the greatest determinant of what religion one will follow. Why do you think that is?You cannot discount communal reinforcement as contributing to your belief.

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How do you know?

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Observation.

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I would say, "ask God", but you sorta have to believe he exists first.

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EXACTLY! If there is no way to determine the right religion without being religious first, then you cannot make a real choice. At least, you cannot choose without being strongly biased by where you were raised, by whom, and whom you are around currently.

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I don't remember. Probably on TV. Maybe it was that Kung Fu guy with the cop son that had that series... I donno.

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So, you weren't raised in a family that practiced Buddhism, didn't know any Buddhists, didn't have any Buddhist temples in your town or nearby, didn't read any Buddhist writings as a child, correct?

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Nah... God and me, We're tight. He opens my eyes to truths my logic and reason could never find. But I am a very much a scientifically minded person.

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Uh, sure. You haven't shown any self doubt, really, in what you believe is true, which makes you quite UN-scientifically-minded.The scientific process is one of constsntly doubting and testing to make sure you aren't fooling yourself.You have not shown a propensity for this thus far.

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If my career in the Marine Corps doesn't work out, I'm considering post-graduate study in astrophysics. But I'm content to do whatever God has for me.

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You wanna talk about abandoning reason and logic, just look at the evolutionary theory! Muhahaha...[/quote]Yeah, why don't you get your PhD in Evolutionary Biology so you can overturn that silly Theory of Evolution once and for all. Of course, you will have to learn all about it, in detail, so that might be a bit too threatening...

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It is also very true that as intelligence rises it becomes a source of arrogance.

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Actually, I find the opposite to be the case.Arrogance and ignorance are often found together in a person, while the more educated one becomes, the more likely one is to realize how much they still have yet to learn.A life of learning breeds a life of being open to learn new things and being comfortable with being new at something. A life of superstition and willful ignorance breeds rigidity and close-mindedness and discomfort with not knowing.Here's some actual stats to back up my claim about education levels and superstitious belief:Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation

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So people with low IQ's make mostly hurtful choices and people with high IQ's make mostly wonderful choices, eh?

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No, no, no.Our intellects give us choices in the first place. We have the ability to reason, to think through things, to understand consequences.We don't always make the right or best choice, but, unlike other animals without our great big brains, we can think in very abstract terms about consequences and morality.

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How do you know? The Bible hasn't changed.

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Interpretations of it have changed.

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If you don't know what's in the Bible then how do you know they were following fundamental principles of the Bible???

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Why do you think I don't know what's in the bible?

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Can't you see? If a person acting as a religious leader makes himself historically famous, that's probably a good indication he's not doing his job right. A religious leader's job is to communicate doctrine, not to start an arrogant crusade.

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LOL!!!By this definition, Jesus, the most famous religious leader of all time, wasn't doing his job right.LOL!Also, what about Ghandi, the Buddha, Mother Theresa? These people are famous religious leaders. Were they all not doing a good job?

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I don't know my history well enough to comment on him (Martin Luther), however his 95 theses were definately a step in the right direction. I can't account for whatever his actions after that were.

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You mean you are a Protestant and you know next to nothing about the kind of man the father of Protestantism was?An incomplete education you've had, I see.Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting "After nuns were raped on the night of Holy Saturday 1525, Luther described Koppe, a burgher of Torgau who led the mob, as a 'blessed robber' and went on,'Like Christ, you have rescued these poor souls from the prison of human tyranny; you have done this at an epoc providentially indicated: at Easter'."In his burning hatred of the Catholic Church, Luther approved of the rape of nuns, thinking they were being "set free"."'Whenever the devil vexes you,' wrote Luther, 'immediately seek the company of men, or drink more deeply, or make jokes or sport, and behave more cheerfully. From time to time one must drink more deeply, joke or commit stupidities, and commit some sin out of hatred and contempt for the devil, in order that we may not give him any room and have qualms of conscience over the smallest matters, for otherwise we shall be conquered if we are too anxious not to sin. Therefore, if the devil says, "don't drink," I shall answer, "Precisely for this very reason I shall drink more deeply, speak with less restraint, carouse the more often, to mock and vex the devil who has set about trying to vex and mock me." Oh, if I could only designate some quite remarkable sin, to mock the devil, so that he should learn that I recognise no sin, and am conscious of no sin, we whom the devil so threatens and vexes must strike out of our eyes and understanding the whole ten commandments.'"Luther here advocates sinning in order to "vex the devil". How does that make sense?He also advocates forgetting the ten commandments entirely here. Do you agree with that?I suggest you do some reading on ol' Luther, and read something that isn't written by a cheerleader.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-09-2004 09:13 AM

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I was just saying that no society has perfect equality. There always has been a hierarchy of power in which the uppermost level determines what is best for the whole society.

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No, that hasn't always been the case.Even in the cases where it has been true, the people in power did mot generate a new morality; they built on the moral sensibilities they already knew.

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Would you agree, you being a christian, (the horses mouth)- that adhering to what Christ says is always a part of being christian?

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So, is willowtree a christian?

But all of these people espouse wildly different philosophies.

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As soon as we think we can go it alone we then start to be Godless, and think of ourselves as confident gods.

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...except that our society has always created rules of behavior that are best for the group.There are consequences to ignoring those rules.See how being without God makes no difference WRT behavior?

With that I definitely agree.