Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.

One of the claims made primarily by Creationists, is that Evolution removes GOD from the discussion and when GOD is removed you end up without a moral base. They seem to imagine that No (Christian) God = Immoral.I wonder if it would be productive to discuss some of the other systems that have developed over time and to compare them with Christianity? In particular I was thinking of Mencius, Buddha and Mo Tzu but it would be nice if other examples were also included.This would most likely be for the Faith & Belief section.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Is it possible to get some examples from each of the sources mentioned so far about things related to social order and behavior?In other words, can you point to specific equivalents to either the Ten Commandments or the Two Commandments as outlined in the Christian NT?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

One of my favorite of the Dao is # 19.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Is the Christian model fixed?Would most Christians say so? After all, few would question that the laws laid out in Leviticus are applicable today.Because the majority of the Christian moral standards are written as specifics based on very narrow points as opposed to broad moral examples, does the Christian Moral System require far more constant tinkering than most of the other Moral based systems in the world?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, let's look at what he suggests as a moral code.He says that there are three qualities,

• Wisdom,
• Morality
• and Meditaion.

DO you see anything wrong with any of those?He then goes on to say that there is an eightfold path towards Enlightenment. The path is

• Right View
• Right Thought
• Right Speech
• Right Action
• Right Livelyhood
• Right Effort
• Right Mindfulness
• and Right Contemplation

Do you see anything wrong with any of those?Edited to add the section below.One other thing. As in Christianity, what happens to you depends on you. If you do not follow a Moral Code you will suffer.This is a Moral Code, and one that would exist regardless of Christianity. So often Christians seem to believe that only Christianity can create a Moral Code that people will follow. Yet Buddhism is but one example of extra-Christian Moral codes that are at least the equal of a Christian Moral code.This message has been edited by jar, 06-27-2004 01:36 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, Almeyda, almost every Moral system is exactly the opposite of what you say.If you look at Buddhism, the sayings of Confucius, the teachings of Mencius or the Dao De Jing, you find just the opposite of Majority Rules. Instead of the situation that you seem to believe, you find discussion after discussion on how to exist. You find example after example that RIGHT decisions must be made at the individual level.IMHO, too many Christians have forgotten that Jesus was not a Bible Thumper. Like the Buddha, like Mencius, like Lao Zi, he taught by telling stories, by example. Jesus said, "Love GOD and love others as you love yourself". Any of the great people that preceeded him would have understood that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You continue to return to the issue of Authority and that is a major theme within each of the existing Moral systems or Religions as well as those that have faded away.But have you noticed that it is within the Judaic based faiths (Jews, Christians and Muslims) that the issue of Authority creates the greatest problems.We have a several threads, right here in River City, devoted to what makes someone a Christian. We have one thread, filled with lewd and obnoxious language, where one alleged Christian calls another group of alleged Christians damned and commiters of an obscene act with their female parent. That alleged Christian goes on to back the statement up with more rantings from what??? A Christian Authority figure.Frankly, if you look through the threads like those, you find little that is moral. If you look at Christian, Jewish and Muslim history, you find little that is moral.So is it possible, that the big difference between the Judaic Religions and most other Religious or Moral systems, the reliance on external Authority of the Judaic based faiths instead of the emphasis on the personal responsibility found in the Eastern religions and many others (Native American faiths for example) is the source for most mass immorality?Is it the Christian, Jew and Muslim's capability to say "I'm committing this act in the name of a higher authority" that allows such behavior?Is the personal responsibility of the individual that is the moral cornerstone of most other religions, and that I believe is the cornerstone of Christianity lost when Authority is transfered from me and you, to the Bible or GOD?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

AlmeydaYou seem pretty sure that Christianity is in some way better than other Non-Christian Moral systems. So far you have not shown reasons for that belief though.Saying you believe in the right GOD does not seem to have anything to do with morals. It may or may not be true, but even if so, almost every war, almost every act of genocide over the last two thousand years has been committed in the Name of one of the three Judaic religions. If you want to include the period covered in the OT, that record can be extended back even further.Contrast that with the number of pogroms and wars initiated in the name of the Buddha or in the name of Confucius.The point of this thread is to examine examples of Non-Christian Moral systems.One major point is that Christianity begins with the assumption that all men are evil. It begins with the assumption that given a choice, people will do evil instead of good and that people are incapable of doing good, doing right, on their own.Other Moral systems, for example the teachings of Buddha, Confucius or Mencius, begin with the assuption that people are basically good and when they are shown that it is in their best interest to behave morally, will do so.Wouldn't it be a good idea, if as part of every persons ethical and moral education, all of the various moral systems were studied?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The point of this thread is to look at how well non-Christian moral systems compare to the Judaic based (Jews, Christians and Muslims) moral systems.How can you reconcile the fact that almost all of the wars, slaughter, genocide and destruction of society during the last 2000 years were committed and driven by the supposedly moral Christian nations, while almost no acts of violence, genocide, and destruction of societies was committed by followers of Confucius, Buddha, Mencius or any of the Eastern Philosophers?Do you agree that one test of the validity of a moral system should be the lives and behavior of its followers?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It might be easier to go the other way. But let's take a start at it.There were the Crusades.There was the Reformation and counter reformation.There was something called the Inquisition.Do you know how the title "Defender of the Faith" got added to the English Crown?Are you familiar with the Marian Martyrs?How about the 100 Years War?What about the War of the Roses?How about The Troubles?Who was it that destroyed the existing American Civilizations and burned all the Codex?Are you familiar with "Manifest Destany"?There was this Christian called Hitler.Palestine today.The terrorist issues today.Actually, I doubt that you can find many conflicts in the last 2000 years that were NOT driven by one of the Judaic nations.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Once again you take the easy out.First, the Judaic religions, Muslim, Jewish and Christian all go back to the same OT basis. You can try to deny it but it is still fact.So let's go to just a few specifics.Do you know how "Defender of the Faith" got added to the English Crown?Do you know about the Marian Martyrs?Do you know about the Inquisition?It is easy to temporize and say "If the outcome does not fit my preconcieved notions then I will disregard it", but that is dishonest.History shows us, unfortunately, that the Judaic based religions, have been the least moral, least tolerant of any of the religions ever created.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Iraq would definitely be Judaic states.China, Vietnam, Burma (Myanmar) are very interesting cases. While they were predomently Buddhist, they certainly were peaceful. In each case, it was only after abandoning the Buddhist doctrines that things went south.I am very glad that you brought up Japan. It opens the opportunity to talk about Shintoism. Of all of the Moral Systems out there, Shintoism is an exception. It is the only one that I know of that has an absolute acknowledgement that there is no difference between Good and Evil.I have had a hard time coming to grips with the Shinto belief system. That has not been for lack of effort, but rather the fact that it really does seem ammoral at base. IMHO, much of the horror that resulted from the rise of Japanese Imperialism can be laid at the doorstep of Shintoism.I wish we had someone here who could speak from that perspective. It would be interesting.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Are you speaking of the old Soviet Union? If so, no. Russia was definitely a Judaic State. What the current status is will show up over time.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, denile. Not just a river.The facts are that Hiltler and his Nazi state said thaey were acting from Christian Moral base.So far, you are simply saying that any example that does not meet your definitions is not Christian. That is dishonest.By the way, the Marian Martyrs had nothing to do with Nazi Germany.The examples that I have given you are all examples of evil. That much we can agree with.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Russia was not Athiestic. It was very much a Christian State, home of the Russian Orthodox Church.T%he Soviet Union was Athiestic.What Russia will evolve into is still an open question. The greatest probablity is that it will become another Judaic State, but only time will tell. It has a large Christian, Jewish and Muslim population. But it also has large minorities of Buddhists and other religions.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion