Hate the sin but love the person...except when voting?

Unsupported assumption. If you can't even determine if the effect would be positive or negative, there's no way to establish that there would be any change at all.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

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We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

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...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Well, it sure ain't loving the sinner.I suppose the rationale would go something like this: "I'm against change. It has nothing to do with whether the change will be good or bad, and I concede there's no evidence that anything societal will change either way. Yes, I understand that voting to keep things the same means gays can't get married. And I also understand that marriage is something that a majority of people enter into. I also understand that for those in a marriage, most of them consider it to be one of the most important things in their lives. I'm voting against gays being allowed the right to one of the most important things in life, not because I hate them, but because I'm against change."Gee, that doesn't sound very loving to me.Edited by subbie, : Tyop

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Self-evident, that's one of those phrases that people use for something they believe but can't prove or have no evidence for. Sorry, not evident to me.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

In all the years that I've been debating gay marriage in various fora and with various people, I've yet to hear anyone explain this statement. Please tell me, as simply and clearly as you possibly can, how allowing gays to marry would change hetero marriage at all, much less be a step in the dissolution of it.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Red herring. It's already "acceptable" for a man to have a relationship with another man, unless of course you want us to join Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea, Libya, Kuwait, Oman and other pillars of human rights which make homosexuality illegal. So, given that we allow homosexual relationships, which is the better message to send to children; they shouldn't make any legal commitment to one another, or they should make the same type of commitment to fidelity and mutual support as married heterosexuals do?{AbE}Your avatar is a picture of two people apparently at the time of their wedding. I seem to recall you discussing that with someone here, so I assume that the picture is you and your bride. You look very happy. I sincerely hope you are and wish you both all the best. How can you reconcile loving another person with a wish to deny them the opportunity for that same happiness?Edited by subbie, : As noted

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Of course, the problem is the positing part. Who gets to posit what's immoral and what isn't? Where did they get the authority do enter these judgments for everyone else? What about those who posit that interracial marriages are immoral? Should they be able to ban all interracial marriages if they are in the majority of those voting? I note that you didn't answer my question. Care to try again? Would you be as happy in your relationship with your bride if the government told you you couldn't marry? If not, please explain how denial of that happiness to others is consistent with loving them. A short primer on Constitutional Law.The Fourteenth Amendment contains, inter alia, the Equal Protection Clause, which states, "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Basically, what this means is that if a State wants to treat people differently, it has to have a reason for doing so. Thus, the presumption is that everyone will be treated the same unless one can justify different treatment. Therefore, we don't look for a reason for treating them the same, we look for a reason not to. And, absent a reason, we treat them the same.Now, I understand that you're not in the U.S. However, it seems to me that a basic premise that any governmental unit should treat everyone the same unless there's a reason not to is such a simple rule of fairness that I can't imagine any free country not accepting it as an axiom.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Another red herring. Nobody is trying to impose anything on you. Nobody is trying to make you marry a homosexual. Nobody is trying to make you accept homosexuality.I'm continually astounded by the arrogant Christian attitude that you have the right to make everyone else live by your rules and it's an imposition on you when others don't want to.*picks your eyes up and rolls them back to you*Oh, it's also rather amusing that about all you have managed to do is provide further proof for the central thesis of this thread; that the Christian myth of loving the sinner but hating the sin is bullshit.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Not at all. Of course you should consider the effect it has on other people. That's part of living in a society.Consider this: one of the foremost principals of Christianity (borrowed from countless other earlier religions) is the Golden Rule. Surely, if you are to love the sinner but hate the sin (the actual topic of the thread), following the Golden Rule would be one way to effectively accomplish that task. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Quite simple, really. So, I ask you this question: would you want others to prohibit you from marrying the person you love? Assuming your answer is no, by what right, consistent with the Golden Rule, do you presume to tell others whom they may marry?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

I'll ask you the same question I asked iano.Consider this: one of the foremost principals of Christianity (borrowed from countless other earlier religions) is the Golden Rule. Surely, if you are to love the sinner but hate the sin (the actual topic of the thread), following the Golden Rule would be one way to effectively accomplish that task. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Quite simple, really. So, I ask you this question: would you want others to prohibit you from marrying the person you love? Assuming your answer is no, by what right, consistent with the Golden Rule, do you presume to tell others whom they may marry?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Then why didn't you?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

You didn't the first time. You came close the second time, but still didn't. That's where you came close. You said you wouldn't expect it. That's not what I asked. I asked would you want it.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Well, you ignored my question, but this post seems to address it to some degree, so let's see where we can go with it. So, assuming you follow the Golden Rule, this must mean that you would have no problem whatsoever with a Muslim imposing Sharia law as the law of the land in Ireland. After all, you adhere to the principle that one ought to impose one's own personal view of godly morality on others, even if they don't share it, in order to avoid what you believe might be negative consequences to society at large.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

And there it is, for all to see, Christian love at its finest. You're filth.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Not just wrong, Abbott, but a hypocritical lair. You don't believe in the Golden Rule, and you certainly don't love the sinner but hate the sin. You are a font of hatred and bigotry, the very worst that humanity has to offer.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

So you're free to disregard the Golden Rule anytime it suits you, is that it? The Golden Rule isn't an imperative from your god, it's just "being nice," not a rule at all, but a suggestion.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

​

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

​

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

​

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist