Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.

Brian writes:Then we have the oft discussed topic that if Jesus was born of a virgin then he is not Joseph’s son, and therefore not a descendant of David, so no Messiah.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Brian writes:There is no mention of Jesus’ coronation in the NT or in secular sources, so Jesus lied, or the poor guy was so deluded that He actually believed that He had been crowned king of Israel.

Brian writes:There is no record of Jesus ever being crowned king of Israel, you think that the NT, and secular sources, would have mentioned His coronation, but Jesus was never crowned king of Israel, thus He was not the Messiah.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Brian writes:The Messiah would also set Israel free from her oppressors, and gather the Jewish nation back to Israel.

Brian writes:Where’s this peace that Jesus should have brought? Since His death we have developed weapons that can destroy the entire Earth! Once again Jesus has failed.The long and the short of it is that Jesus failed to fulfil a single messianic prophecy, and is therefore a failed preacher. Feel free to call Jesus The Messiah if you want to, but He certainly was not The Messiah promised by Yahweh in the Tanakh, to think so is simply perverse.

Brian writes:And what is the legal basis for this Buzz?

Brian writes:So you agree with me that Jesus was never crowned King of Israel or anywhere else?

Brian writes:I have studied it Buzz. I think perhaps you need to take your Jesus glasses off and study it diligently and objectively, you will be amazed how obvious it is that Jesus was no messiah.

The Messiah was prophesied to be King. There is no other prophecy, certainly no prophecy saying that the Messiah would be killed and resurrected, that’s just perverse Buzz.

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou answerest not;3 But thou art holy,4 Our fathers trusted in thee:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered:6 But I am a worm, and no man;7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn:8 Commit thyself unto Jehovah;9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb;10 I was cast upon thee from the womb;11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near;12 Many bulls have compassed me;13 They gape upon me with their mouth,14 I am poured out like water,15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd;16 For dogs have compassed me:17 I may count all my bones;18 THEY PART MY GARMENTS AMONG THEM,19 But be not thou far off, O Jehovah:20 Deliver my soul from the sword,21 Save me from the lion’s mouth; .........
For the kingdom is Jehovah’s;29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship:30 A seed shall serve him;31 They shall come and shall declare his righteousnessIsaiah 52, 53:
52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
52:10 Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.

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52:14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men),

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52:15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.53:1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due ?9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his'seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and'shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Brian writes:And your proof that Jesus rode in to Jerusalem is what exactly Buzz?

EMA writes:I love reading much of Buzzsaws material but he dead wrong in thinking Christ is not now a King or that he does not now have a Kingdom. read Matt 16 and Acts cahpter 2.

EMA writes:buz, i wanted it to be known that while you and I may have some different points of view about gods plans for Israel and the end times, I do not NOT consider you a brother in christ. i think people that are in christ can have different views on such things

Son Goku writes:I think this is too modern a view. There was no such thing as adoption as we know it in Jewish societies back then. Rather he simply fulfilled certain Jewish requirements. Perhaps Foster child is closer, but I do not know. In any case Jesus is described as physically being of the seed of David, even in a non legal sense.

Son Goku writes:Some take this to be a reference to Mary being a descendant of David, although you can argue that Jesus is not even really Mary's child. I think this comes from the phrase the son of God, which a lot of Christians seem to think means he was, in some way, the son of God and Mary or something.
Rather Mary was simply the womb (I'm aware how misogynistic that sounds) which carried the incarnation of an aspect of God.

Son Goku writes:In any case, Jesus, being the son of God, is the most legal person to take the throne of God because David was said to be sitting on Gods Throne.

Son Goku writes:Well Jesus isn't the son of God, he is God. Or rather he is the physical/temporal aspect of one personhood of God. He's not God's son or something. Unfortunately this personhood has the name "Son", another word is λγος or logos. Son is used because it provides a human view of the relationship between this logos personhood of God with the personhood known as YHWH or the Father.

Son Goku writes:Debates on the nature of Christ and his exact relationship to God are not easy. It absolutely dominated the early Roman period of the religion and was only settled after several councils over the span of hundreds of years.The view you take is not the one that won out in the end. I would take your statements to mean you are not Chalcedonian and hence not truly Protestant or Catholic. The view that the Father was greater than the Son is known as heteroousia, although you may know it by the name of the historical group associated with it. Namely Arianism. Anyway heteroousia is not a view held by the majority of churches.

Iblis writes:I think you have the most viable argument against the "failure" hypothesis. I have some questions though. Do you think that when he gets back, and fulfills the "Conquering King" and "Mighty Messenger" groups of prophecies, the Jews will then recognize him as their messiah? Other people might stick on the point that claiming to be God is a no-no for Judaism no matter how many prophecies one fulfills, but I don't believe you have to deal with that particular setback.Then also -- this is the rough part -- how about the Moslems? They also say that they expect him back for the End Times, to defeat the false messiah and reunite all the Abrahamic religions.Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes - his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Dajjal. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Dajjal, and then everyone from the people of the book (ahl al-kitb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him.

Peg message 145 writes:you seem to have missed my answer
The prophecy you are reading comes in two parts.
the first is that Davids offspring would build a temple, the 2nd is that his seed will rule on his throne indefinatelySolomon was to be the builder temple, but another decendent would be the indefinitely lasting ruler of Davids throne.if you cant see that from the verse you are reading, then I cant help you.

Brian writes: I can't believe I am having to go through this!
Look at part of the prophecy.When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom.When David is dead his offspring will succeed him, a son that came from David's body, a biological son. This son will have the throne of his kingdom established forever. There is no other reading there as it clearly says that it is the offspring from David's body the one who succeeds David who will have the throne of his kingdom established forever.Now who is this successor to be, well we are told....He is the one who will build a house for my Name,The house for me Name is the Temple and Solomon the son of David succeeded David, and built the Temple.Then we are told:and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.The establishment of throne of his kingdom forever is clearly speaking of the person who will build the Temple. 'AND I will....' this is the same person Peg, no amount of ducking and diving can change that, and as has already been pointed out to you there are other parts of the Bible that support this.

Brian writes:There's no other person even hinted at in that passage Peg, no matter how you wish to twist things, there is only one person referred to in that passage.

The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus saith Jehovah, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him:2 behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling unto all the peoples round about, and upon Judah also shall it be in the siege against Jerusalem.3 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all the peoples; all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded; and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it.

PD writes:The forever was contingent upon behavior. Since David's descendants didn't behave they lost the promise. That prophecy/promise ended. Contract broken.
When a contract is broken the consequences then apply, we don't go back and change the nature of the contract.

34:11 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I myself, even I, will search for my sheep, and will seek them out.34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered abroad, so will I seek out my sheep; and I will deliver them out of all places whither they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.34:13 And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land; and I will feed them upon the mountains of Israel, by the watercourses, and in all the inhabited places of the country.34:14 I will feed them with good pasture; and upon the mountains of the height of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie down in a good fold; and on fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.34:15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord Jehovah.34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and will bring back that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but the fat and the strong I will destroy; I will feed them in justice.34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.34:24 And I, Jehovah, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them; I, Jehovah, have spoken it.34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause evil beasts to cease out of the land; and they shall dwell securely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in its season; there shall be showers of blessing.34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield its fruit, and the earth shall yield its increase, and they shall be secure in their land; and they shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have broken the bars of their yoke, and have delivered them out of the hand of those that made bondmen of them.34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the nations, neither shall the beasts of the earth devour them; but they shall dwell securely, and none shall make them afraid.34:29 And I will raise up unto them a plantation for renown, and they shall be no more consumed with famine in the land, neither bear the shame of the nations any more.34:30 And they shall know that I, Jehovah, their God am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord Jehovah.34:31 And ye my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord Jehovah.

PD writes:The Book of Kings was supposedly written after the destruction of the temple. The writer already knew David's line wouldn't reign forever and that the temple wouldn't last forever; but the writer didn't change the contract to a heavenly one.The Books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles were all written after the fact while in exile if not after.The Jews didn't need a messiah until after they had lost their kingdom and were exiled and oppressed.The promise made to David in the Book of Samuel has nothing to do with the messiah and is not a messianic prophecy.Even if you wanted to carry the promise forward, Peg already rendered the genealogies useless. One is through the wrong son and the second is through a cursed line. Even the promise from Israel concerning Judah doesn't fit the bill.

PD writes:The text does not support the idea of a heavenly throne instead of an earthly one.

PaulK writes:You keep saying things like this, but it is hard to see how anybody is ignoring that fact - with the possible exception of the three of you. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean.

Thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

PD writes:If a new promise was made and the Messiah is to be from the line of Solomon, Jesus still doesn't fit. He isn't from the bloodline of Solomon as I showed in Message 129. The adoption theory doesn't change that problem.

Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas? 13:56And his sisters, are they not all with us?

PD writes:Ezekiel is a new promise. What does that have to do Solomon?

PD writes: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's what I said. The text does not support the idea of a heavenly throne instead of an earthly one.

Brian writes:Well the promise was made to David Buz. It says that David's dynasty will last forever, and his immediate successor will be the one who builds the Temple.

Briterican writes:Given what we know about Brian, and what we've seen of his understanding through his posts, this is an incredibly baseless accusation.

Tell me of a nation on Earth today that hasn't experienced a degree of global dispersion... We are all everywhere now.

Do you honestly believe in "prophecy", and if so, how do you sleep at night knowing that "the end is nigh?" If your answer is "because I know I will be raptured" - don't you feel any remorse or sympathy for all of us poor misinformed non-believers (or perhaps believers in another faith) who will burn in eternal hellfire?

Briterican writes: You could pick virtually any country in Africa, and this statement would be true. Like all prophecy, it is vague enough that any number of scenarios could be described as fulfilling it.

Gold and silver was replaced by "marks and numbers" a long time ago mate. Are the end times running a little late? Is Yahweh busy rewriting the script?

Hmmm... that describes virtually any point in time in the last several hundred years. Vague and ambiguous.

Sigh. What about the Ottoman Empire, or Rome? Don't these fit the bill?

You write as though you are an educated individual. How then can you be so drawn into superstition and mysticism? Wouldn't your intelligence be more wisely used by dispensing with these fantastic notions of messianic prophecies and instead indulging in a hefty dose of reality?