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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4738 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 306 of 427 (545485)
02-03-2010 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Dawn Bertot
02-03-2010 8:31 PM


Re: Whose Interpretation Contradicts?
I notice Christians use the "dual prophecy/meaning" excuse when:
1) Its shown the context of the story has nothing to do with prophecy.
2) Its shown the prophecy refers to something else entirely.
3) A prophecy fails. Peg actually brought up the King of Trye prophecy which is an utter failure, but "saved" bc the context is obliterated to make it "say" something else.
So my question, where in the OT does it mention dual prophecies/meanings?

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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4738 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


(1)
Message 319 of 427 (545669)
02-04-2010 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Buzsaw
02-04-2010 6:53 PM


Re: Still Not Addressing the Text or Context
Can a Christian please show me where scripture mentions dual prophecies? Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2010 6:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4738 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 340 of 427 (546053)
02-07-2010 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Buzsaw
02-07-2010 8:01 PM


Re: Re; Ignoring The Important Data
What "cited" prophecies are there regarding Jesus? Without using dual meanings and metaphors, which ones are you refering to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2010 8:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2010 10:40 PM hERICtic has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4738 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 344 of 427 (546091)
02-08-2010 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Buzsaw
02-07-2010 10:40 PM


Useless Parroting
Hey, Buz...
Until I can figure out why my computer cannot cut and paste your comments, I'll have to stand down.
I have also been told my posts are not relevant. Not sure how, since this thread conerns the failures of Jesus. I was going to take the "messianic prophecy" route and show how Jesus could not have fulfilled them.... But I guess sine the current topic refers to Solomon....
I also typed out a long response, posted it...but it seems to have disappeared, but my original stills stands. Oh well.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. Again, until I can figure out what is wrong, I'll stand down.
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4738 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 364 of 427 (546451)
02-10-2010 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Peg
02-10-2010 7:32 PM


Re: The Davidic Covenant Does Not Refer To A Messiah
Peg writes:
Also, as you beleive the throne should be a physical throne, I would like to point out to you Davids own inspired words from Psalms 110
110 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.
2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.
If David was the head of the nation, why would he call this person his Lord?
Only because he knew this person was to be placed in the highest position even above David. He was to sit at Gods right hand....this could only be a heavenly position.
The problem is that those arent Davids words. Those are words sung TO David. The LORD is god, the lord is David.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Peg, posted 02-10-2010 7:32 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4738 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 368 of 427 (546473)
02-11-2010 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by hERICtic
02-10-2010 9:41 PM


Re: The Davidic Covenant Does Not Refer To A Messiah
Peg writes:
The psalms are a collection of 150 sacred songs that were set to music and used in public worship at the temple in Jerusalem. Many of them have headings, or superscriptions which often name the writer. Seventy-three headings bear the name of David, including Psalm 110 stating that he was the writer.
Im sorry, im not sure what 'the lord is god, the lord is david' means... could you clarify that?
Hi Peg.
I know from past debates that when OT scripture is brought up, to check the translation. Especially if its suppose to refer to Jesus. By that I mean, comparing the Bibles translation of OT scripture to the Tanach. Many times, its mistranslated. Many times, the Bibles translation twists the OT to make something look messianic, refering to Jesus, when that is not the case. Since you brought up Pslams, I decided to do that. Here is an example (just a lil off topic of one I can think of right away):
KJV:
Daniel 9: 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
Christians use it to refer back to Jesus.
Take a look at: JPS Hebrew Tanakh:
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood;
Meaning changes drastically, doesnt it? Anyway, to get back on topic. I did a word search of Pslams, typing in Pslams 110 mistranslated. Many sites came up, dealing with this issue.
This explains, as does many others, that it should read "a song OF David", not "by David", which changes the context.
'The Lord Said to My Lord' To Whom Was the Lord Speaking in Psalm 110:1? | Outreach Judaism
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I have read this thread from the beginning, incredible debate. But I am a lil confused on one issue. You keep stating that the bloodline did not have to go through Solomon. At least, thats how I am taking it. I just cannot understand why you keep stating that when it states it.
1 Chron 28:5-7
And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts (Who will? Solomon): for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever (Who's kingdom forever? Solomon), if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
2 Sam 7:12-16
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. (Bloodline, through David)
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (Building the house, refers back to Solomon, doesnt it? If so, its refering back to the bloodline, which goes through Solomon).
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Thanks.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by hERICtic, posted 02-10-2010 9:41 PM hERICtic has not replied

Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4738 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 369 of 427 (546474)
02-11-2010 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Buzsaw
02-10-2010 11:21 PM


Re: The Throne
Buz writes:
He wasn't suppose to until the end times according to the prophets and according to his own words. His desciples asked him when the end times would be. He answered by corroborating the OT prophets that the Jews would be scattered globally and return in the latter days/end times.
Yet, nowhere in the Tanach does it ever state the messiah was to arrive without the "signs". Makes little sense that the messiah was to arrive without the "signs", when the Jews were looking for a messiah. Speaking of Jesus' own words, he is pretty clear in Matthew 24 whent he end times were to occur, during his followers lifetime. In fact, throughout the NT, its always the same-nearby, close, at hand, around the corner, etc.

This message is a reply to:
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