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Author | Topic: Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3351 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
in these last days Exactly how long are these "last days" Buzz? Because since I was little boy, my father and grandfather were children, and their ancestors all the way back to St. John and Jesus' Assension into Heaven, people have been thinking that Jesus would return sometime in their lifetime. Now over 2000 years later, people are still repeating this same notion. 2000 years later! When I was a Christian I remember almost on a weekly basis that preachers and televangelists of the likes of Hal Lindsey, Jack Impe, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn and other snake-oil idiots would spew out the stupidity that Jesus would return on such and such date in the year XX. And of course these predicted dates of Jesus return would come and go with no fainfare and of course no recantation or apologies by said televangelist frauds. How many more generations are going to repeat this empty stupid mantra and make ridiculous and idiotic predictions? How many times do we have to demonstrate these people to be total frauds, lunatics and criminals? How much money are we going to flush down the toilet on these people that we could spend fighting global and local epidimics, fighting poverty, furthering science and medicine? How much more stupidity do we have to deal with? Really?!? Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3351 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
if people did more reading of the bible and less relying on the words of tele evangelists they would know the answer to that question. Peg, Thank you for the more sensible, honest and the Biblical answer (even if I am no longer a Christian). One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3351 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Buzz writes: According to the corroborated prophecies, the following events must either simultaneously be fulfilled or be emerging into fulfillemnt. This is of paramount importantance. Had you understood this, perhaps you would still be a Christian. 1) Israel must have been dispersed globally and must have been restored as a nation. The conquering, occupation, and dispersion of Israelites by Babylon and Persia and then the Israelite’s eventual reoccupation of Palestine actually occurred before, during and right after many of these prophecies were made in the OT. Israel since prehistoric times has been the most heavily contested pieces of global real estate in history. Why? Because it occupies a major portion of the fertile crescent of early civilization and is the major landbridge/crossroads/traderoute between three continents and the major civilizations of antiquity i.e. Greece, Egypt, Babylon, Phoenicia, India and the Far East. Due to the constant wax and wane of cultures in this habitable piece of real estate, many of these cultures were weak and subject to the muscle and might of other larger civilizations surrounding it. As a result of this factors since prehistory, the land of Israel/Palestine has been conquered, occupied, destroyed and rebuilt over and over again. Jerusalem itself was attacked and rebuilt nearly 20 times before the birth of Christ. Therefore, it would be strange for any credible historian or sooth sayer to not predict that the people of Israel would attempt to reoccupy this land and rebuild their civilization. Therefore this prediction of the reoccupation of Israel is not a result of some supernatural mystical ability to foresee the future rather it is the ability to extrapolate past and current events into the future. Additionally this is also a self-fulfilling prophecy since the Jewish people have been attempting to reoccupy there original homeland for nearly 2000 years. As a result, it was just inevitable that this restoration of Israel would eventually occur.
The more centuries that this failed to happen, the more likely it would be that it would indeed happen. But lo and behold, in 1948 (about the time I became a Christian) this phenomenal event was indeed fulfilled. This is why it is a self-fulfilling prophecy and why a supernatural explanation is not required.
2. Jerusalem (the old walled city) must be reoccupied by Jews and Gentiles out. Lo and behold, in the 1967 Six Day War, Gentiles ran out of the city and Jews marched in. This, 28 long years after the restoration of the nation. I see nothing in the scripture where anything more than the rebuilding of Jerusalem is predicted. And considering that Jerusalem had been rebuilt at least several times before this prediction was even made, it does not take a rocket scientist to make the prediction that Jerusalem would be rebuilt in the future.
3. The itty bitty little restored nation must be smack dab in the middle of surrounding hostile nations. Check; happened How is this a prediction? Can you name a country in the world that has not been surrounded by other countries that are hostile or unfriendly to it?
4. The nations of the world must be drawn into the Middle East and Jerusalem must be a bone of contention to all nations. Check; happening Subjective statement. Some think the USA is the back of contention to all nations. Some think Iran is. Some think North Korea is. It just depends on who is currently in the headlines. Besides this is just a unsubstantiated conclusion you draw from scriptures. There is no where in scripture where it says Israel is the back of contention to all nations.
5. Global government must be emerging into reality. Check; happening The Egyptians, Roman Empire, Chinese, Byzantine, Mongel Empire, Holy Roman Empire, and Ottoman Empires all accumulated more land and resources than any present day countries. All of them (and much of the rest of the world) considered themselves global governments.So this globalization you talk about is just a reoccurring phenomena that has occurred and reoccurred throughout history. Again, this is not something new much less prophetical. 6. Global monetary systems of marks and numbers must be emerging to replace traditional gold and silver coinage, etc. Check; happening, the last of circulated silver money being in the 1960s (about the time of the end of Gentile occupation of Jesusalem). There was more of a global monetary system during the Roman Empire than there is now. Again, nothing new.
7. The gospel of Jesus must be preached globally as per the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 (known as the Olivet Discourse). Check. Happened; the Holy Bible being the all time best seller for decades etc. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
Consider that at the time of Jesus's prophecy, Christianity was a new little religion, regarded by the establishment as a passing cult. Some still consider it a cult
8. Knowledge and travel should increase phenominally as per Daniel 12. Happening big time, the industrial revolution, for the first time ushering in faster than horse and sail ship travel. Um, this has been occurring since prehistory. Again, this does not need a rocket scientist or prophet to figure out.
9. Climate change must be observed. Check; happening. Global climate change has been occurring since the birth of this planet. Nothing new. Besides, I thought fundamentalists don’t believe in global warming
10. Christians hated and severly persecuted. Check; happening, especially in secular Communist, Muslim and some pagan nations Imagine people of one religion/culture/ethnicity persecuting people of another religion/culture/ethnicity. I love how you leave out all the atrocities committed by God-fearing Christians throughout history. There is blame enough to spread to just about every religion/culture/ethnicity.
11. A speaking image, implemented globally so as for all peoples to see a single event (high tech, if you will) must be implemented as per Revelation 11 and Revelation 17, for examples. The prediction of technological development? Really Buzz? How hard is this to predict? Now if the apostle John predicted the invention of the i-phone or the Internet I would be impressed.
12. Apostacy from Biblical principles, violence, disobedience to parents by children and moral decay must become globally increased. Check, big time. Hmm, should we look back in history even to Christian countries and see the moral decadence that occurred? Have you ever heard of the Salem witch trials; Inquisition; persecution of Jews, Blacks, Chinese, Pilipinos, Hawaiians, Indians, Native Americans, Mexicans and other racial/ethnic/religious minorities by Christians and even Christian missionaries; etc, etc. Should we discuss how many popes and other religious figures past and present are embroiled in sexual perversion, polygamy, racial prejudice, promoting atrocities such as the holocaust, torture, lynchings and other immoral behavior? Really!?!
Talk about moral decay. We live in one of the most civilized societies in history to date. Do we have criminals and problems. Of course. However, I am so grateful to live in today’s FREE society than that of one three or four hundred years ago in which they burned people at the stake for disagreeing with there religious beliefs.
These come to mind off the top of my head. These all must be either in place or emerging before one can empirically declare that the end time is indeed happening. Go and figure, DA and all ye other skeptics. Return to Jesus before it's too late, my friend. Give it up Buzz. Just count me as an apostate. Your arguments are unsubstantiated and not credible.
Lindsey and Van Impe, to my knowledge have never set specific dates, but they all have failed to coroborate all of the prophecies in ariving at conclusions. They make the same mistake I began using years ago; of reading one another's books instead of corroborating scripture itself. You are so nave Buzz or deliberately ignorant. Hal Lindsey predicted in his book The Late Great Planet Earth that Jesus would return in 1988. In 1997 he predicted on his TV show that Russia would invade Isreal in on 25 May, 1999, which would lead to Armageddon. He again predicted in his book Planet Earth — 2000 that the year 2000 would be the year of the Battle of Armagedden. Since than he continues spewing out ridiculous predictions all the way out to 2048!?! Van Impe predicted the Rapture and Second Coming in October 1999. Since then he has been continually revising his prediction and I think his latest one is in 2012 (imagine that with all the 2012 Mayan calendar conspiracy nuts).
According to Jesus's Olivet Discourse prophecy in Luke 21, the generation that sees what he prophesies will be the last; the most obvious the generation that sees the Jews march into the old walled city of Jerusalem and the Gentiles out, signs in the sky, etc. It appears, relative to that and what we observe that it will be sometime before 2050 and likely sooner. You can say, as you observe very bad times merging globally to further corroborate end time prophecies that you read it first at EvC. I give up Buzz, you are a lost cause. You are as bad as Hal Lindsey and the rest of the snake-oil, prophetical nut jobs. Hopefully you will get some enjoyment and fun out of this life. I truly wish you the best and hope you can be cured of your mental disease. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3351 days) Posts: 1548 Joined:
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Revelation 12:6 & 14 & Daniel 4 tell us the length of time as 2,520 calendar years. Revelation 12:6 writes: The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Even if 1 day=1 year where do you get 2,520 years? And how do you know when the "women fled to the desert"??
Revelation 12:14 writes: The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. If a time = 1260 days/years then atimes and a half a time = 1260 + 630 = 1890 days/years this still doesn't = your 2520 years And I see absolutely no dates or correlation of any kind with 2520 years in Daniel 4. So please elaborate. Seems to me you are just pulling dates out of your ass.
We know that 1914 was a turning point in human history and things have never been the same since. You know how many "turning points in history there have been"? Are you serious that you are using the beginning of WWI as the the basis for your prophecy? How about the beginning of WWII? 9/11? The fall of the Roman Empire? The Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD? The Battle of Hastings (which was instrumental in the consolidation of the English culture and birth of England as world power in 1066)? The issuance of the Magna Carta in 1215 (which led to the rule of constitutional law present in nearly every democract country in the world today)? The invention of the printing press in 1440? Christopher Columbus discovery of the New World in 1492? The beginning of the Reformation in 1521? The United States declaration of Indepedence in 1776? The birth of the United Nations in 1945? The rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948, etc, etc, etc.
The Revelation of His Holy Noodleness writes: And I saw when the FSM opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of boiling water, one of the fourth beasts saying, Come and watch me cook. And I saw, and behold a white spaghetti horse: and he that sat on him had a one pound box of spaghetti; and a crown of garlic was given unto him: and he went forth cooking, and to cook. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red spaghetti: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take non-pastafarians from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great linguini sword. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black spaghetti horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of meatballs in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of rigatoni for a penny, and three measures of parmesan for a penny; and see thou hurt not the beer and the wine. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale spaghetti horse: and his name that sat on him was ramen, and soba followed with him. And power was given unto them over the noodley part of the earth, to cook with water, and with oil, and with fire, and with the pastafarians of the earth. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3351 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Rev 12:6 and 14 show that 1,260 days are equivilent to a time and times and half a time, IOW 1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 times. Ok. I will follow your hokey logic though I don't get where "times" = 2? A luner month actually = 29.53059 days and therefore 12 luner months would equal approximately 354.36708 days. 7x354.36708 = 2480 days/years. So it looks like you are off by over 40 years and that your prophetic date should really be 1878. Correct? One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3351 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: Me writes: Ok. I will follow your hokey logic though I don't get where "times" = 2? A luner month actually = 29.53059 days and therefore 12 luner months would equal approximately 354.36708 days. 7x354.36708 = 2480 days/years. So it looks like you are off by over 40 years and that your prophetic date should really be 1878.
mans time table and Gods time table is different i'll agree but seeing it is Gods prophecy, we reasonably should apply his time table to the calculation....even if it makes us look silly This is also why WT dates are slightly different to secular dates for historical events... we use the bibles timetable of events. The bible has a chronology of its own and when that chronology is traced, the dates for events such as Babylons destruction of Jerusalem comes out slightly different.
I actually forgot to factor in the Jewish Leap Years. However, even when I factored these in, the math came out to be 2556 years vice your 2520 years. This is still off by your date by 16 years. Check my math if you want (7 extra months every 19 year cycle)
Trusting in God means trusting that the bible was penned under his guidance and therefore must be accurate. The problem is that how do we know YOUR calculations are right? Do you speak for God? It is this self-righteous pompous "I speak for God" attitude that pisses a lot of people off, including other Christians.
Im sure you'd agree that whoever put the sun and stars into motion are a superb mathematician... i think we can trust his calculations Maybe but not YOUR calculations. Where in the Bible does it say specifically 2520 years much less what date it is supposed to start from? That is right. No where. You are creating crap out of thin air and snake-oil selling it to the public as if you can read the mind of God and forsee the future. I shouldn't even give you this much credit. Rather you are regurgitating 100 year old prophecies with faulty logic/math by nutjobs based on very loose interpretations of your fabricated book. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3351 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
you certainly dont have to believe anything i say... no one has a gun to your head. I don't. That is the whole point of this discussion. I am challenging your faulty reasoning and logic. That is the point of this forum is it not, to debate? Or why do you post here? To spew your pseudoscientific, illogical, snake-oil nonsense? One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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