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Author | Topic: Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Perhaps you would like to actually explain the relevance of those points ?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I have no idea what your point is concerning 2 Samuel 7:13. I've seen no explanation on how the text refers to a heavenly throne and king instead of an earthly throne and king. The text of 2 Samuel 7:13 does not refer to a heavenly throne. All the pieces and parts you pull together can't make the words in 2 Samuel 7:13 refer to a heavenly throne. It's all earthly. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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Brian Member (Idle past 4984 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Your MO has consistently been to mine out quotes here and there out of at large context so as to satisfy your preconceived missconceptions. HTF can I be quote mining when I posted the entire prohecy! 2 Samuel is quite clear. The person who builds the temple will have his kingdom established forever.
Brian, here's where you err. Yes, Solomon was to build the temple but the throne of the temple Solomon built did not last forever. Well the promise was made to David Buz. It says that David's dynasty will last forever, and his immediate successor will be the one who builds the Temple.
That the location of David's forever throne would be at Jerusalem and on the ancient Temple Mount is significant, When is this happening Buz and what does it have to do with 2 Samuel?
phenomenal restoration of the regathering of the Jews to their homeland, Israel since 1948 when the restored nation was established. How can it be phenomenal when people manipulated the situation and that Israel is NOT back in the land that God promised them? They don't even own the freakin Temple Mount!
Wake up, world, and smell the messianic Armageddon coffee! Observe the evidence, ye science minded skeptics! People have been saying that for 2000 years Buz, it's never going to happen. How many years is that you have wasted of your life on this fantasy Buz, is it about 50 or so? So much wasted lives on such an obvious fraud. Oh well, as long as you are happy.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4984 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
I'll tell you something, this thread would be a great boon to anyone studying the Psychology of Religion.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 108 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
I have no idea what your point is concerning 2 Samuel 7:13. I've seen no explanation on how the text refers to a heavenly throne and king instead of an earthly throne and king. And it is likely that you, brian and PaulK never will, considering the fact, that you are now burying your heads in the ground and acting like children nearly. However, my guess is that you are not that simplistic, as to miss my point Truely PD, do you not see the point i am making or are you simply being silly?
The text of 2 Samuel 7:13 does not refer to a heavenly throne. It does if God is its source, its authority and maintanance. it does if it is for Gods purposes. When you choose to entertain the reality of God in and from the same context you are deriving your arguments, that speak of this kingdom or that kingdom, then you will be honest with your readers and yourself.
All the pieces and parts you pull together can't make the words in 2 Samuel 7:13 refer to a heavenly throne. It's all earthly. Your right, if God has nothing to do with it. But if he doesnt, who cares anyway. the choice is yours to be honest with your readers and yourself. Fortunately the 'Pieces' and the 'Parts' as you describe my arguments are the a part of the context and make it a spiritual kingdom in every sense of the WORD See you in reality EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 108 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
People have been saying that for 2000 years Buz, it's never going to happen. How many years is that you have wasted of your life on this fantasy Buz, is it about 50 or so? So much wasted lives on such an obvious fraud. Oh well, as long as you are happy. And now we are back at square one with the Humanists, demonstrating that jesus was more than sucessful, for which Gods plans were intended. read the following passage and note very carefully all the specifics and details involved in the nature and purpose of Christs church and kingdom Failure, I doubt it Ephesians chapter 11 "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, 11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which ye show toward all the saints, 16 cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him; 18 having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might 20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 and he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. " Wow that just about wraps up every single thing needed in a kingdom in the form of the church. Kingdom, smingdom, use any word you choose, it all adds up to God carrying out his eternal plans. Some people miss the kingdom, because they are not looking in the right place Wait, whats that Paul? You mean theres more? Ephesians chapter 2 11"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men) 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." A Spiritual kingdom from start to finish EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I keep asking you to explain your point, but you won't. Insulting us isn't being helpful. Perhaps you would like to try rational argument instead ?
quote: So if it comes from God it must say what you want it to say ? Why ?
quote: Perhaps you would like to explain that. Because you seem to have a curious conception of honesty. One that has nothing to do with telling the truth.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:As I said, I have no idea what your point is concerning 2 Samuel 7:13 and what I've argued concerning that verse. If you want a discussion, then you need to explain your point and explain what you mean by spiritual. Until then, I'll make another observation. The sticking point of 2 Samuel 7:13 seems to be the word for ever, which is two words in that verse: ad (as far as, even to, up to, until, while) and olam (long duration, antiquity, futurity).
He shall build a house for my name and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever So God is promising David that his lineage through Solomon would rule an earthly kingdom for a long, indefinite, unlimited, undisclosed, hidden or a concealed period of time. It didn't mean that it wouldn't end at some point. Even our use of the words forever, everlasting and perpetual carry a meaning of continuing indefinitely or for a long period of time. The continuing kingship was contingent upon behavior as I showed in Message 131. The verse is not referring to a messiah or a heavenly kingdom. God is setting up the physical leadership for the Israelite people of the time. Even if some don't accept the fact that the promise to David ended with the destruction of the first temple due to his descendants misbehavior; Jesus is not from the line of Solomon. To top it off, as Peg so nicely pointed out in Message 126, Joseph was from a cursed line.
Peg writes: Jeremiah 22:24-30:‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘even if Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, the king of Judah, happened to be the seal ring on my right hand, from there I would pull you off!’... for from his offspring not a single one will have any success, sitting upon the throne of David and ruling anymore in Judah.’ 2 Samuel 7:13 has nothing to do with a messiah or a spiritual kingdom and the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are useless. If the messiah was to be from the bloodline of Solomon, then Jesus doesn't fit the bill. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 108 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
I keep asking you to explain your point, but you won't. Insulting us isn't being helpful. Perhaps you would like to try rational argument instead ? And ignoring the point I am making and evading answering any questions directly does not help your cause Have I not made myself clear, that even an fifth grader could not understand my argument, PaulK? here it is again then since you wont give up the dumb card. Are you smarter than a fifth grader Paul? Did the Lord actually make the following statement or was this just the ramblings of some crazed guy named Nathan 2 Samuel 7" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: If the Lord establishes a kingdom, and it is by his authority, power and administration, is it therefore a spiritual kingdom, regardless of how long it last. give me another term to describe God annointing and establishing something that would not be considered spiritual in character
So if it comes from God it must say what you want it to say ? Why ? No I need inspiration in the form of an Apostle to explain all of his intentions and purposes Just answer the simple question Paul without repeating yourself. If it is from God, established by God, would it not be considered spiritual in nature and eternal in character?
Perhaps you would like to explain that. Because you seem to have a curious conception of honesty. One that has nothing to do with telling the truth. Do you mean the kind of honesty that allows an individual to sit there time after time making an argument from a text he believes to be inaccurate, fanciful and complete fiction, specifically that of 1 and 2 Samuel. Or am I mistaken Paul and you actually do believe God to be its author and the miracles attributed to its pages and Gods intervention and direction in its content to be actual and believable. Come on Paul tell the readers from which platform you are proceeding and then speak to them concerning honesty. EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: I am not ignoring it, I keep asking you to explain it. And instead of an answer I get insults.
quote: No, you haven't made yourself clear at all.
quote: It doesn't matter to my position. Personally I don't believe either. But then you shouldn't believe any of the speeches in ancient documents - even histories - are literally what was said.
quote: Not if you mean that it ISN'T an earthly kingdom. After all if God establishes an earthly kingdom, then it's still an earthly kingdom. You must remember the whole point of saying that it means a spiritual kingdom is to deny that it refers to an earthly kingdom.
quote: In other words you need somebody to tell you what it means. Would you like to explain why ? Can't you just read it ?
quote: Not necessarily. That surely would be up to God, would it not ?
quote: If you mean the kind of honesty that truthfully and accurately represents the text instead of distorting it to fit dogma, then yes. That IS being honest.
quote: I am standing from the platform that says that we should look directly at the text and not allow dogma to prejudice our investigation. As Slevesque said we should treat the Bible as a historical document and that is what I am doing. Perhaps now you can explain your position. Why should your personal beliefs influence the way we look at the Bible ? Why do you regard honesty as an adherence to the doctrines you favour ? Maybe then we can make some progress.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 108 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Comical at best. First PaulK writes:
It doesn't matter to my position. Personally I don't believe either. But then you shouldn't believe any of the speeches in ancient documents - even histories - are literally what was said. Then he surprisingly he states:
I am standing from the platform that says that we should look directly at the text and not allow dogma to prejudice our investigation. As Slevesque said we should treat the Bible as a historical document and that is what I am doing. Belief in the God the text cries out for Paul is not prejudice and dogma. in fact it makes little or no sense without it exacally what part of the text are you using Paul. If i believe as you do that none of the miraculous things it are true, spoken by the same person from which you derive your arguments, why would you trust any of his statements of history. where exacally in history 9outside the scriptures)for example would you expect to find nathans comments to david concerning god building a house for him. I have tried to explain before there is no way to proceed without a common frame of reference. its simply a vicious circle. thanks for atleast making your position on it clear however. EAM
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Brian writes: Well the promise was made to David Buz. It says that David's dynasty will last forever, and his immediate successor will be the one who builds the Temple. This is how you consistently show your ignorance on basic Bible scholarship, Brian. No credible Bible scholar would accept your POV on the Davidic Covenant here. They/we are all rational enough to know that like the Abrahamic covenant that The term, throne here in context implicates kingdom, in that all kings sit on thrones. We know in retrospect that Solomon's throne did not last forever. We also know in retrospect that the messianic prophecies of a global dispersion of the nation would come to pass and that the Jews, i.e. descendents of David would be regathered to restore the nation at a time when the new nation would be surrounded by hostile nations and the nations of the world would be gathered into the region for war. We see also in retrospect that the prophets were right on, in that these end time events would come at a time when marks and numbers would replace gold and silver for commerce, at a time of significant increase in knowledge, and at a time when a one world government would come into focus for consumation. If one rationally (I say rationally)corroborates all of this factual data, there remains no doubt as to what Jehovah meant by the term, forever, relative to what is known among Biblical eschatology scholars as the Davidic Covenant which is the focus of our debate here. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Briterican Member (Idle past 3974 days) Posts: 340 Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: This is how you consistently show your ignorance on basic Bible scholarship, Brian. Given what we know about Brian, and what we've seen of his understanding through his posts, this is an incredibly baseless accusation.
Buzsaw writes: ...the messianic prophecies of a global dispersion of the nation would come to pass Tell me of a nation on Earth today that hasn't experienced a degree of global dispersion... We are all everywhere now. Do you honestly believe in "prophecy", and if so, how do you sleep at night knowing that "the end is nigh?" If your answer is "because I know I will be raptured" - don't you feel any remorse or sympathy for all of us poor misinformed non-believers (or perhaps believers in another faith) who will burn in eternal hellfire?
Buzsaw writes: ...at a time when the new nation would be surrounded by hostile nations You could pick virtually any country in Africa, and this statement would be true. Like all prophecy, it is vague enough that any number of scenarios could be described as fulfilling it.
Buzsaw writes: and the nations of the world would be gathered into the region for war. The nations of the world that are capable of flexing global influence are gathered for war anyway, at all times, via contingency planning and rapid response forces. Again, vague and not impressive.
Buzsaw writes: We see also in retrospect that the prophets were right on, in that these end time events would come at a time when marks and numbers would replace gold and silver for commerce Gold and silver was replaced by "marks and numbers" a long time ago mate. Are the end times running a little late? Is Yahweh busy rewriting the script?
Buzsaw writes: at a time of significant increase in knowledge Hmmm... that describes virtually any point in time in the last several hundred years. Vague and ambiguous.
Buzsaw writes: at a time when a one world government would come into focus for consumation. Sigh. What about the Ottoman Empire, or Rome? Don't these fit the bill?
Buzsaw writes: If one rationally (I say rationally)corroborates all of this factual data I'm re-reading your post again now... I still don't find anything in it that passes for factual data. You write as though you are an educated individual. How then can you be so drawn into superstition and mysticism? Wouldn't your intelligence be more wisely used by dispensing with these fantastic notions of messianic prophecies and instead indulging in a hefty dose of reality?
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Brian Member (Idle past 4984 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
You guys had any luck with confirming Jesus' bloodline to David, or are you happy to concede that there is not one?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That may be your opinion, but even on the evidence of this thread it does not appear to be true.
quote: Oh dear, it seems that you are still making the same mistake. This is a point I have already addressed. The tests I am using are the messianic prophecies and the alleged messianic prophecies (which are typically nothing of the sort). For the messianic prophecies we can look at them and see whether Jesus fulfilled them For the alleged Messianic prophecies we can read them in context, see what they really say - and if they are framed as predictions at all. The actual history behind the writing (aside from the dating, and whether the originator is Jewish or Christian) is of relatively little importance to this analysis.
quote: This is the first time you have said that. However, since this thread is about BRIAN'S reasons for considering Jesus a failure then the common frame of reference has to be one that makes sense to Brian. So treating the Bible as a historical document would be appropriate. Any other point of view would have to be argued for.
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