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Author Topic:   Can't ID be tested AT ALL?
Annafan
Member (Idle past 4609 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 40 of 304 (245119)
09-20-2005 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by mick
09-19-2005 9:30 PM


Re: How to Measure Complexity
The one thing I always find irritating about the ID claim, is that it comes down to the absolute sillyness (not the Official, RAZD meaning ;-) ) that Intelligent Design is the best explanation because it exactly explains why a structure does exactly what it does or has taken on the exact shape that it has.
It was DESIGNED to do exactly what it does or look exactly what it looks like , for what else would it be designed???
But more importantly: what possible USE does this conclusion have? It is pure idiocy.
This message has been edited by Annafan, 20-09-2005 01:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mick, posted 09-19-2005 9:30 PM mick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Warren, posted 09-20-2005 5:37 PM Annafan has replied

Annafan
Member (Idle past 4609 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 47 of 304 (245398)
09-21-2005 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Warren
09-20-2005 5:37 PM


Re: How to Measure Complexity
Warren: I don't know where you are getting this. IDers are interested in exploring whether an explicit teleological approach can carry out a progressive investigation that serves to weaken or strengthen the design inference and whether it can help expand our understanding of biotic reality.
Design-type thinking is already part of science so I fail to see what you are complaining about.
Consider:
“Both history and present Darwinian evolutionary practice have shown us that this kind of design-type thinking is involved in the adaptationist paradigm. We treat organisms - the parts at least -- as if they were manufactured, as if they were designed, and then we try to work out their functions. End-directed thinking - teleological thinking - is appropriate in biology because, and only because, organisms seem as if they were manufactured, as if they had been created by an intelligence and put to work.”
Michael Ruse, Darwin and Design: Does evolution have a purpose?, p. 268 (Harvard, 2003)
The point of my post was that I simply don't see HOW postulating an intelligent designer as an answer to certain questions could EVER "Help expand our understanding of biotic reality"
I don't disagree that adaptationist thinking also features "design-type reasoning" on some level. After all, the basic idea is that random mutation together with natural selection results in a process that mimics "design in order to serve a purpose". As such, I would say the "design-type thinking" is used as some sort of working hypothesis that leads scientists to the right questions to ask.
What I was getting at is: although they apply this kind of design-oriented thinking, they WON'T accept "intelligent design" as an endpoint to work towards. They will always intend to break down the answer "designed" into smaller constituents.
"It appears designed, but HERE are the deeper reasons/mechanisms WHY/HOW it comes accross as intentional design"
ANY "deeper understanding of biotic reality" comes from the second part of the sentence. The 'conclusion' design in itself is useless as long as it doesn't lead to meaningful research behind it.

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 Message 43 by Warren, posted 09-20-2005 5:37 PM Warren has not replied

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Annafan
Member (Idle past 4609 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 55 of 304 (245864)
09-23-2005 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by 1.61803
09-22-2005 3:34 PM


Re: How to Measure Complexity
Personally I am of the belief that reality will always remain a mystery and dispite ever increasing human intelligence we will probably never be able to know the most fundamental question. But I also know humans will never cease looking.
And here's my main problem with ID: it has an aura about it of unwillingness to investigate further. As if the proponents feel somekind of RELIEF that they finally found something that seems to indicate the existence of a barrier against naturalism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by 1.61803, posted 09-22-2005 3:34 PM 1.61803 has replied

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