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Author Topic:   Can't ID be tested AT ALL?
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 79 of 304 (285363)
02-09-2006 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
01-27-2006 8:19 AM


If not what?
If Irreducible complexity does not exist, then it should be easy for you and me to invent them. Why have we not done that?

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 83 by sidelined, posted 02-12-2006 7:44 PM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 84 by Omnivorous, posted 02-12-2006 7:46 PM inkorrekt has not replied

inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 81 of 304 (286005)
02-12-2006 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Chiroptera
02-10-2006 12:19 PM


Re: My apologies to Voltaire.
Not necessarily God. It can be a Computer programmer, Chemical Engineer, ARchitect or even an alien from Moon.

This message is a reply to:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 85 of 304 (293771)
03-09-2006 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by sidelined
02-12-2006 7:44 PM


Re: If not what?
Very interesting. How can you deny irreducible complexity? I do not understand. Alright, if we had irreducible complexity will this be possible?

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Replies to this message:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 87 of 304 (293922)
03-10-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by ramoss
03-09-2006 9:43 PM


Re: If not what?
I am shocked as well as surprised how could a biologist who has studied at least graduate level can deny the complexity of the cell?
Oversimplifying such complex systems do not take us anywhere except to fulfil our egos. There is double talk. When we talk about complexities in life which we do not even understand, they are simplified. When we talk about simple reactions that do not occur, we are told that they are not Science.

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Replies to this message:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 88 of 304 (293926)
03-10-2006 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by ramoss
03-09-2006 9:43 PM


Re: If not what?
I am shocked as well as surprised how could a biologist who has studied at least graduate level can deny the complexity of the cell?
Oversimplifying such complex systems do not take us anywhere except to fulfil our egos. There is double talk. When we talk about complexities in life which we do not even understand, they are simplified. When we talk about simple reactions that do not occur, we are told that they are not Science.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 93 of 304 (294325)
03-11-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ramoss
03-10-2006 10:59 AM


Re: If not what?
You do not need to do any experiment to prove this. Volumes and volumes of information is available about the structure and functions of the cell. All you have to do is to look up the information already available and find out for yourself if this is too simple to understand or it is extremely complex..

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 110 of 304 (306338)
04-24-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ramoss
03-11-2006 5:10 PM


Re: If not what?
Let me try something different. I suppose you know what enzymes are and how they function. Enzymes are proteins. Proteins cannot be synthesized.It is avery complex proces.We have succeeded in synthesizing peptides. This itself is very complex.Protein synthesis also includes enzymes. Enzymes have very unique features. That is every enzyme has an active center. The sequence of amino acids and their spatial orientation are highly specific. This unique structure of the active site attributes to the specificity of enzymes (substrates).They also have activators. They also have inhibitors. Some of the products of the enzyme action also regulate the rate of the reaction. This applies to one enzyme. For example, inside the cell there are hundreds of such enzymes each one specifically catalysing a particular reaction. Glucose is oxidised to Carbon dioxide and water. This process produces energy for various cellular activities. Glucose enters the cell through the action of insulin. It is converted to Fructose di phosphate. After a series of reactions, it is converted into lactate if oxygen is absent. In the presence of oxuygen, this is converted into pyruvic acid which enters the mitochondria where it is oxidised to carbon dioxide and water. This is a factory within the cell where hormones regulate the inflow of metabolites as well as some enzymes and are transported into various compartments and finally energy is generated in the form of ATP. If man has to simulate this operation, it requires enormous space, chemical engineers to design the plant and mechanical and electrical engineers to construct various parts of the plant and it has to be powered on and regulated.This itself is a complex operation.
Inside our body, this is miniaturized at the microlevel. If this is not complex, what will be complex?

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 112 of 304 (307199)
04-27-2006 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Wounded King
04-25-2006 6:38 PM


Re: If not what?
Do you not think it might be worth your while finding out what the distinction is between 'complexity' and 'irreducible complexity'(IC), if you plan to base your arguments on IC.
If you cannot understand what I wrote, I will have to repeat what I said before which is a waste of time and energy.I will say this one more time. Irreducible complexity is the superlative expression of complexity.
This message has been edited by inkorrekt, 04-27-2006 08:39 PM

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 114 of 304 (307999)
04-30-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by NosyNed
04-27-2006 8:40 PM


Re: What IC is and isn't.
I am not writing anything based on the ID books. I even contradict them. Alright let us assume that nothing in this universe is complex. Everything is too simple and even a fool can understand everything.
If everything is so simple, then why is it that no one has ever synthesized a living cell yet? It should not be a problem at all for all our Scientific "genies".

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 119 of 304 (308339)
05-01-2006 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Philajnjjj
04-30-2006 5:47 PM


Re: What IC is and isn't.
But I don't really understand your point in relation to the testability of ID. Because we have not achieved the synthesis of a cell from atomic or molecular components, then this is a test for ID?
My question is not a test of ID. This is a challege to those who insist that there is no complexity inside the cell and even "Irreducible Complexity"
This message has been edited by inkorrekt, 05-01-2006 10:22 PM

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 142 of 304 (310867)
05-10-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by RAZD
05-06-2006 4:27 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
This post is fascinating. So, we both agree that the regulatory mechanisms for the beta-galactosidase gene, are complex. This experiment only elucidates the control mechanisms for the metabolism of lactose. This among other observations is a clear evidence for ID. Thanks for the post.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 144 of 304 (311754)
05-14-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by crashfrog
05-10-2006 7:52 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
No not at all. The experiment only proves the complex mechanisms within the cell. Just because some one elucidated the complex mechanism does not make it simpler at all. Once again we have the same old fundamental question: How did this complex organization come about?

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 154 of 304 (313725)
05-19-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ramoss
05-14-2006 9:38 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
Just because the control mechanisms were elucidated does not in anyway make it "SIMPLE". Alright let us assume that it is not at all complex. If this enzyme is too simple, then why no one has ever symthesized it? Not necessarily this enzyme, but any known enzyme. In the unverse, we have thousands of enzymes. Why is it that not asingle one of them has been synthesized yet?

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 157 by Brad McFall, posted 05-20-2006 8:09 AM inkorrekt has not replied
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 158 of 304 (313908)
05-20-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by inkorrekt
05-19-2006 9:44 PM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
"To date, they have created a synthetic version of one of the enzymes. However, their version just contains 25 atoms, whereas the real version contains thousands. As a result, their version works for a bit and then stops"
This report does not give much information. just a simple molecule with 25 atoms is even less than a peptide, leave alone polypeptides. Need more information on this. Poly peptides do not mimic enzyme activity. In today's world, anyone can write anything unless someone else either confirms of challenges it.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6198 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 159 of 304 (313910)
05-20-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by crashfrog
05-20-2006 2:00 AM


Re: What IC means and what it doesn't.
No 'intelligence' is needed
.
Now, I have no choice except to repeat the same question. If no intelligence is required, why no new forms of life have emerged? Please do not repeat that new forms have been identified. I am yet to see them. you have never answered my question in the past. Why no one has synthesized any form of life so far? Are we still DUMB not to figure this out?
How did the first form of life come into existence?

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Replies to this message:
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