The Evolution of evcforum.net

This is a reply for Mick from here.Yes, but I bet you enjoyed these posts and looked forward to receiving replies. Anyonw reading these posts who feel they are ”silly’ can just stop reading and look for stuff that they are interested in.One of the things that attracted me here was the ”whacko’ topics started by non-experts. I used to love reading these posts and then sit back and admire responses from classy posters such as Edge, Joe Meert, or John that systematically ripped the arse out of what these whackos posted. It was very educational, hell even I read the science topics. It is too clinical here now, EvC’s soul has gone. The decline only came about after the Boot Camp and PNT concepts were introduced. I mean who are we to tell people like Buz how he should think, the guys been a fundy for about 200 years and we are arrogant enough to tell him he must change his thinking process or be banned!! Let the guy post whatever he wants, his fundy mindset is needed around here as it is a good example to lurkers of how sill creation science arguments are! But, it is also entertaining when the real experts provide real scientific responses to these guys, I looked forward to lunchtimes when I could have a cup of tea and read EvC, but now all it takes is a five minute browse and I switch off and go read a book. And just how many people have taken a self-imposed leave of absence in the last 6 months or so? Dan and Hambre’s comic ”duels’ were ”kin hilarious, these guys have moved on. Mammathus, a superb and very knowledgeable poster whose demolition of old senile Davison was amazing, very informative, where has Mamm gone? Charles King, John, Rei, Doc, Fortenberry, I could go on and on, and I would be willing to bet a lot of these posters are bored to tears because topics need to go through a screening process before being promoted. And, hey let’s be honest here some of the promoted topics should never pass even a cursory screening. It is time to retire the PNT forum and it is also time to bring back the Free for All before EvC expires. So your certainly not enjoying EvC as much as you used to, what do you think is wrong now, and what would make it better here?Brian.

It would be like the good old days and the site would probably better moderated as a member could point out to their opponent where they have to support what they are saying instead of admins having to do it all. The site should self moderate with the admins only being required to deal with outrageous behaviour and intervene at the request of members.Too much is expected of Admins here, just look at what happens to most people when they become an admin. Truthlover always posted excellent, well thought out posts, a very humble and helpful guy, he gets made an admin and we hardly ever see him and he is Admin of no less than TWENTY FOUR forums! I realise he is most likely very busy with other work, but babysitting 24 forum to the level Percy wants is an impossible task.Then look at Hambre, he becomes an admin and we never see him againWhere is admindawg?Where is adminJazzlover?Who the hell is AdminMike?Has adminTC ever done any admin work?Why do you think so many admins do next to nothing here?Maybe we should contact those absent member and ask why they dont post so much now?It is all left to guys like Ben, Jar, Nosey, yourself, and the queen to do 99% of the work here. Personally I really do not have the time to read through and essentially rewrite some of the PNT's, but I could hapily spare the time to jump on outrageous behaviour or respond to a members request for intervention.We need to do something cause this place is going tits up.My suggestion is to retire the PNT forum.Brian.

Hi H, Don’t you feel though that once you have identified a timewaster you just ignore their posts? For example, someone like Tal is a complete waste of time, so I just ignore what he posts as it is clear he is just trying to irritate people. I fully agree and wasn’t suggesting that this was the reason for everyone leaving, though I do feel that some of the more prolific posters became pissed off with the clinical approach we have here now. Obviously I cannot say for certain, I would need to ask each one why they left, but I find it very coincidental. Well, to be fair, I didn’t say this is why they definitely left, I suggested that it MAY be why they left, and it may indeed be a reason why SOME of them left. But, I find it unusual that someone, say Dan, who would make a few posts every day would suddenly stop. Dan is a natural comedian (as is Hambre), and he (they) had an Aladdin’s cave of material here at EvC, and I certainly think it is POSSIBLE that they became bored with the new format. I do apologise for this, I wasn’t aware of this discussion and certainly would not have mentioned it if I had known it would make you feel bad, sorry. I agree, but, given the high regard in which you are held by most of the members here, wouldn’t you feel the need to announce to them that you were going and the reasons why? I am sure you are right in some cases, but I wonder just how many have left because of the new format.Are you enjoying EvC as much as you did maybe a year ago?Brian.

Hi Mr. Jack,This is an excellent point: I just made the same point to Phat on another thread (string ), sometimes a member has to wait days on a spin off topic being approved, by that time the heat has gone.Would you like to see the PNT gone?Brian.

Indeed, but the reasons why they get a new interest MAY be down to them being bored with the new format here at EvC. As you said, you are relatively new here and probably cannot fully appreciate what I am saying. But, EvC used to be a hive of activity and I bet the site traffic/average postings per day has dropped recently because things have not changed for the better. But we always did have some well thought out threads, and even the poorly conceived threads used to still run for a good bit before dying, if they did die that is. I have been a member at sites without mods, but only for a very short time. We weeded ours out here, because some moderation is always required. The general level of debate here used to be much better than it is now. I think the admins have ”relaxed’ because they are being asked to do too much. Apart form Ben, Jar, Nosey, and the queen, the rest of us hardly do anything, although this may be for a variety of reasons. Personally, I gave up admin because my thesis was about due and I didn’t have time to do any admin duties. I volunteered to do a little earlier this year when Percy was extremely busy. But being asked to vet every post for quality doesn’t inspire me to do admin full-time at all. It is far easier skimming posts for personal abuse and off-topic responses than it is scrutinising every detail of every post in your forum(s). But it isn’t working, certainly nothing near as well as it worked in the past. EvC is on life support. Because EvC is a product of ID Brian.

Hi, Why?Brian.

Hi,At the same time I have seen topics promoted that (IMO) needed a hell of a lot of work before I would have promoted them!Brian.

But it doesn't need to be the heat of a battle. It can be the 'heat' of enthusiasm over a topic, it could be that you would really like to discuss a particular sub topic there and then and it doesn't have to be as opponents!Imagine a Thursday night, you have made a few posts and you know that a member you have been replying to is online. Now, that member mentions something that immediately captures both your imaginations, you are both eager to discuss it, not argue, but discuss. Then you need to wait days to do it, it spoils the entire moment.I also like spontaneous discussion, it shows how well you know a topic rather than having days to read up on it.Brian.

Hi M,Great to hear from you again.I do realise that some posters do have changes in their life/career, and I appreciate that EvC is way down the list of many people's priorities, it is even way down my list of priorities.But this sums up part of what I am moaning about: These were good old days. These threads were where scientific ignoramuses such as myself could learn something from people like you and Joe. I knew there was a lot wrong with what these creationists were claiming but you guys actually highlighted it perfectly and in language that I could understand. We hardly ever get discussions like that now, or maybe we do and it is I who have changed and maybe it is time I moved on.Cheers for now.Brian.AbE Do you think you would find time to post if old Salty started posting here again?This message has been edited by Brian, 10-24-2005 09:25 AM

Hi,Not much good for the lurkers though, plus there's no record of the discussion if you wish to resume it again, or check over which particular points have already been made.What's your opinion of the PNT, and EvC in general, are you enjoying it as much as you did a year ago?Brian.

How much admin work have you done here Mike?Also, it looks as if you disappeared pretty soon after becoming an admin, any connection, if not why did you leave?Brian.

Hi Ben,I’d say that all your purposes are relevant to what EvC is trying to achieve, but I think that the problem lies here: We are here for different purposes, for example some are here for no reason other than to preach the gospel, some are here to disrupt, and some are here to try and undermine religion. So we are not all singing from the same hymn sheet, but some are. Well, what I think may be happening is not just that there is a different purpose for your opponent being here, some may have a completely different understanding of how to approach a subject in a scientific manner.Take my area as an example. How many people have approached archaeology/Near Eastern history/Old Testament Studies with a very simplistic understanding of these subjects? Many of the people I discuss these topics with really do not have the basic enquiry skills to construct legitimate arguments. The historio/scientific method is way beyond a lot of these people, but the problem is that these people really think that they are approaching these subjects properly! They do not see a problem with simply making statements because they haven’t been taught to scrutinise and criticise sources. Yesterday we had a guy here who is a perfect example of this, he claimed that a chariot wheel in the Red Sea supports an Exodus and sea crossing, now anyone with a basic understanding of archaeology and historical methodologies knows that this is one big non sequitur but this guy obviously feels that it is good evidence, he may well be puzzled as to why I am underwhelmed about this discovery.So, the problem is not just the different purposes, it is the different approaches to scientific, historio/scientific methodologies of members that is a big problem. This is supported by the number of topics that creationists have had rejected, and also by the very few new PNT creationists have even bothered to start. I can sympathise in a way because they genuinely think that they have constructed valid arguments and that we are being too picky and because of that we are getting a name as being an anti-creationist website. Now, I know we aren’t, and I’d say a high percentage of members know we aren’t, but it LOOKS bad, so I say let them post weak OP’s and the more knowledgeable posters can point out the errors and give advice. Even if the topic originator goes off in a huff we have at least helped some lurkers, but when it comes down to the PNT we are not even getting a chance to point out errors because so many PNT’s are being rejected, or creationists maybe do not feel that their PNT has a chance of being approved by our rigid clearing procedures.But I think that this is where we can actually make EvC a valuable resource. By allowing a lower level of accepted opening posts we can all point out what is required to support an argument, not just admins but all members can do this, and admins can step in when things get personal. Even when a fundy type post is being ripped apart it is valuable because it helps to improve your own knowledge. I always triple check everything before I post (if it is my area) and sometimes this leads me to enquire more about a topic, so I improve my own knowledge.Also, I wonder how many people here have had private e-mails from lurkers thanking them for providing information/answers to something that has been troubling them for a long time, or saying how impressed they are with your knowledge of the topic, or even someone asking them to look over an essay they have written? I have had countless emails from lurkers of the type mentioned, and I bet quite a few members here have too, so we are providing a service. I have even been offered two admin posts at two different sites because of my participation at EvC so we shouldn’t underestimate just how many interested lurkers there are out there.But, we do need to do something because, as some people have pointed out, this site is a shadow of what it was.I don’t have all the answers, but perhaps we could have an area where topics do not need to be screened, and an area for ”higher level debate’?Can I finish by saying that I love it here at EvC, I am only moaning because this is a great place and I have made many friends here, if I didn’t love the place I’d go to another board and watch this place continue to sink.Brian.

I wouldn't say it is shitty, but it is heading that way.It will pick up soon when God tells Percy to lower the bar for the fundies. Brian.

I'm beginning to find the eye a bit disturbing myself. I am going to change it, but I need something equally disturbing. Do you have photograph I could borrow? The Messiah can do whatever He wants to.Brian.