George W. Bush's qualifications to be President

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Why does anyone have to have a certain number of ANY race, especially if doing so wouldn't even reflect population. Shouldn't it just be qualification?

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Not in a context of historical and ongoing racism, no. Becuase in that context, we can be confident that favouyred candidates will be a particular ethnicity rather than the most competent. That is precsiely why affirmative action is absolutely required: without it the prevailing racism is merely entrenched and propagated, and we do NOT get the best people.

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Contra, you show an extreme lack of knowledge on this. Sharpton... especially in his early days... made a fool of himself while trying to make a name for himself. He played the race card however he could, and ended up getting caught in some of his own lies.

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So republicans allege, from the racist argument that Sharpton is himself racist (cue stock criticism of AA). Sharpton has a good international reputation as a speaker and politician, certainly more so than Dean.

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During this year's campaiging while he was on a talk show he was even caught on this by a republican. Evidentally even he would dismiss your claim as inaccurate as he proceeded to ADMIT IT WAS TRUE. In order to move on HE APOLOGIZED for the needless pain his lies and provocations had caused.

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I'm not willing to accept that anecdote as demonstrative of your argment without a reference; IME these arguments often revolve around subtle intepretations. I didn't claim he was a saint, you will note, I only argued that he was correct, and in my opinion obliged as a decent human being, to criticise those who ostentatiously fail to make the world a better place when endowed with significant social authority.The fact that so many Democrats buy into this Republican analysis is indicative only of how right-wing American politics has become, and how embedded racism is in the American political system.This message has been edited by contracycle, 08-19-2004 05:15 AM

What the hell are you talking about? Have you even been to his state? Oh yeah, you haven't even been to the US. Let me tells ya, a REAL hotbed of ongoing racism.So lets say he needed to fill ten spots, or anyone has to fill ten spots, let me know what race they must be and in what order (just in case I run into a case where it is less than ten). Oh yes, give me the reason why as well. You have GOT to be kidding me. Why don't you go to the US and talk to black people there, the guy is a JOKE to many of them.Just because a person is black does not mean they are superior and immune to racism, or in this case playing the race card to get an edge up. Blacks can figure that one out, just as well as anyone else. Yes, I've heard this and from what I have seen recently he may deserve quite a bit of credit for being a good speaker.This does not mean he cannot be racist, anyone with power (which he does have) can get a good reputation internationally. That still does not mean he is not a racist. Or in the case of what I was addressing, play the race card to get a leg up.It also does not erase his past which was NATIONAL, and filled with such garbage. You will note that I was saying I found him quite impressive during this election year, because he has changed from his earlier days. Unfortunately he still plays the race card. That's funny because you've been acting like I have to take your assertions without any evidence. Remember I asked if any black person was seeking to be in Dean's cabinet? Do you know? If not, was he supposed to conscript them in?But it is fair to say you won't believe my anecdote without a ref. Unfortunately I have seen so many debates and interview shows I can't remember which one it was and at what time.By the way do you believe the anecdote about him winning debates... including special mention by Buchanan (a republican)... or do you need a ref for that as well?If I remember right, it was on Bill Maher's show. But I could be wrong. Either way I am telling you he did, and if you get a chance to meet him, why don't you just go ahead and ask him. He apologized on national TV, I assume he'll fess up that he did so in person.If you have any doubt about Sharpton causing people... even black people... pain in order to make his name in politics, especially in his early days, look up his history online. I'm sure it must be there, unless they decided to erase Towanda Brawley's story.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Here is a link to Sharpton and the Tawana Brawley caseCreate a Website | Tripod Web Hosting

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What the hell are you talking about? Have you even been to his state? Oh yeah, you haven't even been to the US. Let me tells ya, a REAL hotbed of ongoing racism.

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Yes, it is in my opinion. Just here, just a little while ago, overt racism was exhibited and VEHEMENTLY DEFENDED. In my eyes, the USA is a virulently racist state with a huge delusion about how it cleaned up its act in the sixties.

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That's funny because you've been acting like I have to take your assertions without any evidence. Remember I asked if any black person was seeking to be in Dean's cabinet? Do you know? If not, was he supposed to conscript them in?

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Yes. You are making a classic error here; exactly the same argument was used to defend the priviliege of elite unioversities; allegedly the proles "didn't want" to go to the stately piles. But in reality, that hesitation was a result of the indoctrination of class inferirority - affirmative action to stock universities with working class students have suceeded.

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This does not mean he cannot be racist, anyone with power (which he does have) can get a good reputation internationally. That still does not mean he is not a racist. Or in the case of what I was addressing, play the race card to get a leg up.

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My problem is that allegations of playing the race card to get a leg up, i.e.e that anti-racist campaigners are hypocrites, is a right wing argument. Its much the same as the theist argument that atheists are maliciously concealing the truth of god; thus, when I encounter this stock argument, it looks highly suspicious to me.And the link that Mamathus porovides reinforces this impression; note the loaded phraseology: "
In previous cases, Maddox and Mason had used the tactic of non-cooperation, refusing to let their clients testify in an effort to facilitate a "miscarriage of justice" in which the perpetrator(s) would get off. In this way they could heighten the outrage of the black community and claim the result proved that the judicial system discriminated against blacks"A classic case of attribution of malicious motive. Reading this document, the actions and strategy of the "trio" appear reasonable enough to me. I too would start from the presumption that the justic system would be unlikely to be just to a black person, and even more unlikely to be just to a woman levelling a rape charge.I also liked the emotional useage of "seized upon".This I ask again, what were the terms of Sharptons apology? Did he apologise for purposeful deception, for being himself deceived, what?I also note this "source" discusses US support for terrorism in Nicaragua without ever resorting to such an unpleasant title; indeed, it is bound in the same patriotic historiography as ever. What makes this a reliable source?

I have found some text for an "apology" by Sharpton, is this what you were referring to?

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Even so, he still faces huge obstacles on the road to credibility. While many New Yorkers admire him for the mass arrests that he organised after the killing by police of an unarmed immigrant, Amadou Diallou, he is notorious for the case of Tawana Brawley, a 15-year-old black girl who in 1987 claimed to have been raped by white men who cut the letters "KKK" into her skin. He jumped on the bandwagon, accusing a former prosecutor of being one of the attackers and whipping up anger, before two juries found the story to be a hoax.

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"I believed her," he says today. "What are they saying? That I should have assumed a young girl was lying? That I shouldn't listen to women? Look at Whitewater, Enron - Brawley pales in comparison. I believed in a case that a jury didn't believe in. I've seen people on death row for 17 years who were innocent because a jury didn't believe them."

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New York's black firebrand aims for White House | World news | The Guardian

c:

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Yes, it is in my opinion

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c:

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affirmative action to stock universities with working class students have suceeded.

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assertion without evidencec:

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My problem is that allegations ...

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one of many problems...c:

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when I encounter this stock argument, it looks highly suspicious to me.

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and c responds with stock reactionary diatribes and unsupported assertions.c:

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And the link that Mamathus porovides reinforces this impression;

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at least I provided a link...you provide opinion that you claim is fact and assertions that you claim require no support...pretty clear for someone who shows such prejudice against the US (not unlike a racist) that you would uncritically support Sharpton without even knowing about the Tawana Brawley case....but then opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs does not stink.c:

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I too would start from the presumption that the justic system would be unlikely ....

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So you assume your own conclusions before even examining an issue? That explains a lot.

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What makes this a reliable source?

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What makes you a reliable source?

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at least I provided a link...you provide opinion that you claim is fact and assertions that you claim require no support...pretty clear for someone who shows such prejudice against the US (not unlike a racist) that you would uncritically support Sharpton without even knowing about the Tawana Brawley case....but then opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs does not stink.

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Please. I do not study every jot and tittle of the careers of US politicians. Appeals to "support" are ridiculous coming from your Mammathus, given your habit for arguing from your own ignorance. As you will see I have now found for you some of Sharptons comments on the matter. I see you are further resroting to the "help help I'm being persecuted" conspiracy theiry used both by racists and US patriots - the common feature being, of ccourse, rioght-wing conservatism. And thus is it unsurprising that the right wing in the UK also described Sharpton as a "race baiter" and called for him to be blocked from entry to Britain when invited by Operation Black Vote.What we have is an apparent and determined slander on the character of Sharpton by the right. The fact that this has passed into the "main stream" of American politics is indicative only of the extent to which the American main stream is right wing, and the extent to which racism is publicly tolerated.

Maybe you should go live there for a while. You will find some areas virulently racist (against any race including white). You will find some areas moderately racist (again against any). You will find some areas not prejudiced at all.I think you are incorrect to assume either of the first two dwarf the third such that you can paint the US as a virulently racist state. You should stick to class warfare angles, that is pretty much what it has turned into. No, YOU are making the classic error. You are believing the claim that because Dean did not have any black cabinet members he was perpetrating some racist policy.Where is the evidence?Again, if it is your argument that all roles must be filled such that racism is avoided, please list what races (in order of importance and with explanation) must be filled on a ten slot opening. THIS is true. But it is a logical fallacy to believe that you can then point to any allegation of playing the race card and say it MUST BE a right wing argument. What happened is that he was railing against Bush for having deceived the American public on a number of things but especially Iraqi WMDs and links to terrorists... and he was doing quite well I might add.Then a really pissed off guy (its funny because I thought the guy was a democrat but the rest of the show made him look like a republican), pulled out some bunch of evidence against Sharpton (actual clippings and things). As part of all of this he brought up Tawana (sorry for the misspell earlier) and some other instances of doing that similar thing. Indeed as he laid them out they were very similar in nature.Sharpton moved into an apologetic tone and said he had already apologized for that and he is still sorry for the pain that he had caused. He admitted it was of the same nature, but did say that it was not the same in SCOPE as the errors of the president... and indeed Sharpton had at least apologized.Now my criticism of Sharpton was NOT in relation to Bush. I agree that Bush did something a lot worse. But that does NOT change the charge or his culpability. In his early days he was hotheaded and a grandstander. He was trying to make a name for himself (like most politicians, and especially ministers turned politicians) and race was an easy thing to use.Without question he used it back then, and he still uses it from time to time. But he has improved! I didn't post it and I haven't read it yet. Perhaps you should ask the poster.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Please. I do not study every jot and tittle of the careers of US politicians.

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It is clear you know absolutely nothing about any subject you prattle on about much less the "jots" of careers of any politicians.

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Appeals to "support" are ridiculous coming from your Mammathus, given your habit for arguing from your own ignorance.

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Even if this were true, it would not release you from the obligation to support your arguments. That you resort to insults or just plain duck out of the fight any time you are called to support you assertions demonstrates that you possess none. It is obviously more comfortable for you state of mental illness to claim everyone is a racist and that you are some kind of ubermensch floating above all the rest....in other words you are a dillusional hypocrite.

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I see you are further resroting to the "help help I'm being persecuted" conspiracy theiry used both by racists and US patriots - the common feature being, of ccourse, rioght-wing conservatism

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LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Coming from the pansy who goes whining to the admin for weeks because the evil EvC pervasive racist conspiracy of the right wing is out to get him....and I thought you were a self righteous hypocritical ass when it turns out you are a stand up comedian.

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What we have is an apparent and determined slander on the character of Sharpton by the right

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You should be more concerned that the media does not cover what Sharpton says at all for the most part..or Nader or anyone but Kerry and Bush...but then you are a person who does not see the donut..only the hole and misses the critical issues while tilting at windmills.

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The fact that this has passed into the "main stream" of American politics is indicative only of the extent to which the American main stream is right wing, and the extent to which racism is publicly tolerated.

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Considering you clearly have not stepped out of the protective safety of your own back yard and cling to cliches and common prejudices about other people and countries, you are in no position to make any statement about what is or what is not tolerated, discussed, or contested in this or any other country. In fact your opinions about South Africa are equally irrelevant. Your complete ignorance and utter failure to support anything you have asserted makes it extremely likely you know nothing about the political history of your own country....feel free to whine to the Admin some more...at least until holmes comes back and shreds your last post to him some more...then you can continue to whine in public....

Hot dog!!!! No it isn't, but that article was awesome. If it didn't prove my point to you then nothing ever will.It showed that while he definitely has a swing with black voters he is not loved by all of them. Conveniently he portrays them as Judas's to their race as he is their Jesus... oh man that is PRICELESS!Unfortunately for him not all black against him are conservative Republicans ala Keyes. I knew democrats and quite liberal too, that laughed at that guy.It also mentions that it was NOT JUST the Tawana Brawley case. I wish they had been a bit more descriptive about the other early cases, but Tawana was the MOST INFAMOUS of his dealings.As a side note the apology on the show was not similar to the one listed in the article. He did not try and play innocent "shouldn't I trust the girl who was raped?"*** card. He apologized for having done what he did. He did however (after admitting his guilt) put it into context of Bush and Co's hypocricies. While true, does not erase his own guilt.Although that Jesus-Judas thing wa beautiful, nothing points out who Sharpton is or was at heart than this quote... Man that says it all. He can't even spot his on egomaniacal tendencies, repeating them as if it was a SIGN of non-egomaniacal tendencies.I will repeat though, that he has calmed down in his new debate style (oh yeah the article also showed that he changed styles for this campaign). I was very impressed most of the time.***--- In case you bought Sharpton's appeal to protecting a raped girl he believed in, ask yourself this: If the girl was WHITE and the men were BLACK would have have jumped to the same position? The very tail of his apology undercut this. He says he's seen innocent people CHARGE AND SENTENCED because a jury agreed with their guilt. Uhhhh, that's EXACTLY what he tried to do against those white people. Gasp! Hypocrisy!You should not jump into American politics and defend American politicians until you know SOMETHING about the specifics.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

+ =
nice analysis.I had no idea this thread would be so fun!

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

hehe, I wonder sometimes. Thinking about it seriously though, he would probably scare many of his constituents if he went around proclaiming himself as a "Christian ayatollah" just because it sounds too "muslimy" (and we all know we should be afraid of them). It would be too much him voicing the evangelicals greatest fear and their greatest desire.Are there really going to be any debates between Kerry and Bush?Bush was afraid to talk to the 911 commission by himself, so perhaps if Bush were allowed to bring a "cheat sheet", namely Cheney (not that I believe there was a conspiracy but it does raise questions).
Bush doesn't seem like me to be much of a debater. I would love to have seen the debates that Kerry had with O'Neil. I have gotten the impression that Kerry is a rather strong debator but I could be wrong. Bush on the other hand...Yeh, I would love to see a true debate between the two. If Kerry could impress me in the debate I'd feel better about voting for him. Which in its own way is sad that I feel I don't have much of a choice in who to vote for, and I do not want another 4 years with GW. I am serious when I say that he scares me (The guy is a nut).

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Maybe you should go live there for a while. You will find some areas virulently racist (against any race including white). You will find some areas moderately racist (again against any). You will find some areas not prejudiced at all.

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I don't believe that for a second, I'm afraid, and I could have said the same about South Africa anyway. If you like, I will be more precise: the sub-population of Americans I encounter on the internet demonstrate a deep and abiding commitment to racism in my view, even the self-described liberals.This is an impression substantially reinforced by American foreign and domestic policy as encountered in news organs.

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No, YOU are making the classic error. You are believing the claim that because Dean did not have any black cabinet members he was perpetrating some racist policy.

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Yes. He was.

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THIS is true. But it is a logical fallacy to believe that you can then point to any allegation of playing the race card and say it MUST BE a right wing argument.

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True. But Sharptons reputation is such, and American racism so endemic, that I have every reason to believe it is a politically motivated smear. In fact America exhibits a systematic pattern of smearing black civil rights leaders, and it might be a good indication that Sharpton is fighting the good fight.

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It is clear you know absolutely nothing about any subject you prattle on about much less the "jots" of careers of any politicians.

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Oh dear Mammathus, perhaps you should wait until you are old enough to go to school before you engage in this sort of humiliating display.

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Even if this were true, it would not release you from the obligation to support your arguments.

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Why? You don't.

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That you resort to insults or just plain duck out of the fight any time you are called to support you assertions demonstrates that you possess none.

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Thats a direct lie, isn't it Mammy's Boy? Becuase I provided much support for my prior arguments, all of which you dismissed by argument to your own ignorance. The only arguments you will accept are those you already agree with. You are a troll.

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Considering you clearly have not stepped out of the protective safety of your own back yard and cling to cliches and common prejudices about other people and countries,

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Oh please, the defender of racism argues to prejudices about contries? My assesment is based on actual observation, Mammy's Boy - If I believed the common prejudices I would fall for the US's hubristic self-perceptions of liberty.

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you are in no position to make any statement about what is or what is not tolerated, discussed, or contested in this or any other country.

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Well seeing as you leap to ignorant assumptions about my status and experience, you are really just demonstrating your own naivite. But then, you're justa troll-boy, aren't you?

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It showed that while he definitely has a swing with black voters he is not loved by all of them. Conveniently he portrays them as Judas's to their race as he is their Jesus... oh man that is PRICELESS!

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Holmes, have you ever explored this topic at all? What is surprising about the fact that there is disagreement among the black community? Or don you expect them to all think alike?And why should Sharpton not refer to Judasses when others refer to Uncle Tom's, or House Niggers, or collaborators? Wake up and smell the coffee please, this has all be part of an argument going back 200 years and is easily investigable if you care to do so.

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He did not try and play innocent "shouldn't I trust the girl who was raped?"*** card.

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Oh its another CARD of course... becasue we knowe he's EEEEEVIL. Jesus.

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Man that says it all. He can't even spot his on egomaniacal tendencies, repeating them as if it was a SIGN of non-egomaniacal tendencies.

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What does this have to do with anyhting beyond character assasination?

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In case you bought Sharpton's appeal to protecting a raped girl he believed in, ask yourself this: If the girl was WHITE and the men were BLACK would have have jumped to the same position?

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OF course not. What has that got to do with anything? Is there a history of systematic prejudice and abuse of due process by a dominant black majority against a white minority?

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The very tail of his apology undercut this. He says he's seen innocent people CHARGE AND SENTENCED because a jury agreed with their guilt. Uhhhh, that's EXACTLY what he tried to do against those white people. Gasp! Hypocrisy

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Why is it hypocritical to argue the guilt of people you believe to be guilty? What he said was that in his opinion (and it has to be said, also the opinion of a wide variety of international observers) some innocent people had been imprisoned on the basis of a jury decision. How does that undercut his argument?