George W. Bush's qualifications to be President

Born to the right family?

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Granted, it would have been nice if Dean could have named a couple of black cabinet members and then asked Sharpton what his point was, but the guy was the governor of Vermont, folks. Blacks are only 0.5% of the Vermont population, so unless Dean has a cabinet of 200 people, statistically blacks aren't underrepresented therein.

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So that demonstrates that Dean is failing to challenge the status quo. He was rightly caught out by his own shaemful inactivity.I'm surpriused so many alleged democratic supporters buy into racist Republican tarring of Sharpton, but have come to expect little better.

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Why does anyone have to have a certain number of ANY race, especially if doing so wouldn't even reflect population. Shouldn't it just be qualification?

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Not in a context of historical and ongoing racism, no. Becuase in that context, we can be confident that favouyred candidates will be a particular ethnicity rather than the most competent. That is precsiely why affirmative action is absolutely required: without it the prevailing racism is merely entrenched and propagated, and we do NOT get the best people.

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Contra, you show an extreme lack of knowledge on this. Sharpton... especially in his early days... made a fool of himself while trying to make a name for himself. He played the race card however he could, and ended up getting caught in some of his own lies.

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So republicans allege, from the racist argument that Sharpton is himself racist (cue stock criticism of AA). Sharpton has a good international reputation as a speaker and politician, certainly more so than Dean.

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During this year's campaiging while he was on a talk show he was even caught on this by a republican. Evidentally even he would dismiss your claim as inaccurate as he proceeded to ADMIT IT WAS TRUE. In order to move on HE APOLOGIZED for the needless pain his lies and provocations had caused.

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I'm not willing to accept that anecdote as demonstrative of your argment without a reference; IME these arguments often revolve around subtle intepretations. I didn't claim he was a saint, you will note, I only argued that he was correct, and in my opinion obliged as a decent human being, to criticise those who ostentatiously fail to make the world a better place when endowed with significant social authority.The fact that so many Democrats buy into this Republican analysis is indicative only of how right-wing American politics has become, and how embedded racism is in the American political system.This message has been edited by contracycle, 08-19-2004 05:15 AM

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What the hell are you talking about? Have you even been to his state? Oh yeah, you haven't even been to the US. Let me tells ya, a REAL hotbed of ongoing racism.

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Yes, it is in my opinion. Just here, just a little while ago, overt racism was exhibited and VEHEMENTLY DEFENDED. In my eyes, the USA is a virulently racist state with a huge delusion about how it cleaned up its act in the sixties.

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That's funny because you've been acting like I have to take your assertions without any evidence. Remember I asked if any black person was seeking to be in Dean's cabinet? Do you know? If not, was he supposed to conscript them in?

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Yes. You are making a classic error here; exactly the same argument was used to defend the priviliege of elite unioversities; allegedly the proles "didn't want" to go to the stately piles. But in reality, that hesitation was a result of the indoctrination of class inferirority - affirmative action to stock universities with working class students have suceeded.

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This does not mean he cannot be racist, anyone with power (which he does have) can get a good reputation internationally. That still does not mean he is not a racist. Or in the case of what I was addressing, play the race card to get a leg up.

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My problem is that allegations of playing the race card to get a leg up, i.e.e that anti-racist campaigners are hypocrites, is a right wing argument. Its much the same as the theist argument that atheists are maliciously concealing the truth of god; thus, when I encounter this stock argument, it looks highly suspicious to me.And the link that Mamathus porovides reinforces this impression; note the loaded phraseology: "
In previous cases, Maddox and Mason had used the tactic of non-cooperation, refusing to let their clients testify in an effort to facilitate a "miscarriage of justice" in which the perpetrator(s) would get off. In this way they could heighten the outrage of the black community and claim the result proved that the judicial system discriminated against blacks"A classic case of attribution of malicious motive. Reading this document, the actions and strategy of the "trio" appear reasonable enough to me. I too would start from the presumption that the justic system would be unlikely to be just to a black person, and even more unlikely to be just to a woman levelling a rape charge.I also liked the emotional useage of "seized upon".This I ask again, what were the terms of Sharptons apology? Did he apologise for purposeful deception, for being himself deceived, what?I also note this "source" discusses US support for terrorism in Nicaragua without ever resorting to such an unpleasant title; indeed, it is bound in the same patriotic historiography as ever. What makes this a reliable source?

I have found some text for an "apology" by Sharpton, is this what you were referring to?

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Even so, he still faces huge obstacles on the road to credibility. While many New Yorkers admire him for the mass arrests that he organised after the killing by police of an unarmed immigrant, Amadou Diallou, he is notorious for the case of Tawana Brawley, a 15-year-old black girl who in 1987 claimed to have been raped by white men who cut the letters "KKK" into her skin. He jumped on the bandwagon, accusing a former prosecutor of being one of the attackers and whipping up anger, before two juries found the story to be a hoax.

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"I believed her," he says today. "What are they saying? That I should have assumed a young girl was lying? That I shouldn't listen to women? Look at Whitewater, Enron - Brawley pales in comparison. I believed in a case that a jury didn't believe in. I've seen people on death row for 17 years who were innocent because a jury didn't believe them."

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New York's black firebrand aims for White House | World news | The Guardian

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at least I provided a link...you provide opinion that you claim is fact and assertions that you claim require no support...pretty clear for someone who shows such prejudice against the US (not unlike a racist) that you would uncritically support Sharpton without even knowing about the Tawana Brawley case....but then opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs does not stink.

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Please. I do not study every jot and tittle of the careers of US politicians. Appeals to "support" are ridiculous coming from your Mammathus, given your habit for arguing from your own ignorance. As you will see I have now found for you some of Sharptons comments on the matter. I see you are further resroting to the "help help I'm being persecuted" conspiracy theiry used both by racists and US patriots - the common feature being, of ccourse, rioght-wing conservatism. And thus is it unsurprising that the right wing in the UK also described Sharpton as a "race baiter" and called for him to be blocked from entry to Britain when invited by Operation Black Vote.What we have is an apparent and determined slander on the character of Sharpton by the right. The fact that this has passed into the "main stream" of American politics is indicative only of the extent to which the American main stream is right wing, and the extent to which racism is publicly tolerated.

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Maybe you should go live there for a while. You will find some areas virulently racist (against any race including white). You will find some areas moderately racist (again against any). You will find some areas not prejudiced at all.

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I don't believe that for a second, I'm afraid, and I could have said the same about South Africa anyway. If you like, I will be more precise: the sub-population of Americans I encounter on the internet demonstrate a deep and abiding commitment to racism in my view, even the self-described liberals.This is an impression substantially reinforced by American foreign and domestic policy as encountered in news organs.

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No, YOU are making the classic error. You are believing the claim that because Dean did not have any black cabinet members he was perpetrating some racist policy.

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Yes. He was.

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THIS is true. But it is a logical fallacy to believe that you can then point to any allegation of playing the race card and say it MUST BE a right wing argument.

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True. But Sharptons reputation is such, and American racism so endemic, that I have every reason to believe it is a politically motivated smear. In fact America exhibits a systematic pattern of smearing black civil rights leaders, and it might be a good indication that Sharpton is fighting the good fight.

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It is clear you know absolutely nothing about any subject you prattle on about much less the "jots" of careers of any politicians.

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Oh dear Mammathus, perhaps you should wait until you are old enough to go to school before you engage in this sort of humiliating display.

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Even if this were true, it would not release you from the obligation to support your arguments.

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Why? You don't.

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That you resort to insults or just plain duck out of the fight any time you are called to support you assertions demonstrates that you possess none.

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Thats a direct lie, isn't it Mammy's Boy? Becuase I provided much support for my prior arguments, all of which you dismissed by argument to your own ignorance. The only arguments you will accept are those you already agree with. You are a troll.

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Considering you clearly have not stepped out of the protective safety of your own back yard and cling to cliches and common prejudices about other people and countries,

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Oh please, the defender of racism argues to prejudices about contries? My assesment is based on actual observation, Mammy's Boy - If I believed the common prejudices I would fall for the US's hubristic self-perceptions of liberty.

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you are in no position to make any statement about what is or what is not tolerated, discussed, or contested in this or any other country.

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Well seeing as you leap to ignorant assumptions about my status and experience, you are really just demonstrating your own naivite. But then, you're justa troll-boy, aren't you?

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It showed that while he definitely has a swing with black voters he is not loved by all of them. Conveniently he portrays them as Judas's to their race as he is their Jesus... oh man that is PRICELESS!

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Holmes, have you ever explored this topic at all? What is surprising about the fact that there is disagreement among the black community? Or don you expect them to all think alike?And why should Sharpton not refer to Judasses when others refer to Uncle Tom's, or House Niggers, or collaborators? Wake up and smell the coffee please, this has all be part of an argument going back 200 years and is easily investigable if you care to do so.

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He did not try and play innocent "shouldn't I trust the girl who was raped?"*** card.

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Oh its another CARD of course... becasue we knowe he's EEEEEVIL. Jesus.

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Man that says it all. He can't even spot his on egomaniacal tendencies, repeating them as if it was a SIGN of non-egomaniacal tendencies.

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What does this have to do with anyhting beyond character assasination?

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In case you bought Sharpton's appeal to protecting a raped girl he believed in, ask yourself this: If the girl was WHITE and the men were BLACK would have have jumped to the same position?

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OF course not. What has that got to do with anything? Is there a history of systematic prejudice and abuse of due process by a dominant black majority against a white minority?

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The very tail of his apology undercut this. He says he's seen innocent people CHARGE AND SENTENCED because a jury agreed with their guilt. Uhhhh, that's EXACTLY what he tried to do against those white people. Gasp! Hypocrisy

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Why is it hypocritical to argue the guilt of people you believe to be guilty? What he said was that in his opinion (and it has to be said, also the opinion of a wide variety of international observers) some innocent people had been imprisoned on the basis of a jury decision. How does that undercut his argument?

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Yes, it must be humiliating for your ignorance to constantly be paraded on this forum. Your ad hominem again demonstrates you have no case.

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Ha ha ha. Trolls don't want argument, so why should I give you one?

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My arguement has been from the beginning that you have no support for your assertions...you have demonstrated my point in every post..or are you now going to provide academic or private funded research that supports your various assertion about racism?

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I would suggest that if you investigated the topic, that would be easy enough to find. The guardian, for example, regularly prints articles by reserach bodies providing statistical evidence of racism in the UK. Theres plenty of it about - the fact that YOU have chosen to be ignorant is not MY problem, troll boy.

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No it is the truth...must hurt since you can only resort to an insult...you have no case.

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Nope, its still a direct lie.

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where? you have made a constant stream of assertions with no indendent cooborative evidence to back them up and then followed them up with insult and evasion whenever asked to provide evidence...you have no case.

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And what you have done constitutes yelling "NO ITS NOT" with your fingers in your ears. But then, thats what trolls do.

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For asking you to put up or shut up? It seems that you don't even know what a troll is.

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I have explained my position many times - you appear to be asserting that it is invalid for me to hold a position unless I can prove it to you and everyone beyond any doubt. Thats naive and unrealistic; its also a grievously dishonest "debating" tactic. And you have offered not even an explanation of your position - you just asser and assert and assert. Your simply ignorant and using your ignorance as a shield to hind behind. I say again - your ignorance is not my problem, grasshopper. Although you may learn at my knee, if you wish.

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I don't defend racism except in your perverted asshole mind.

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Prove it. Go on, prove it. I mean you wouldn;t want to be a hypocrite now would you? So seeing as you have made this assertion, it is up to you to demonstrate it to me comprehensively and incontrovertibly. And if you do not do so, or if I find your explanation inadewuate, then you will have run away like a chicken. So put up or shut up, troll boy.

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However, you show your hypocricy again by admitting you are prejudiced while condemning prejudice...you have no case.

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Ha ha ha!!!

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..from the basement you parents lock you in at night?..wow..your amazing insights on America and racism are so well founded

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Yet another demonstration of profound ignorance and assumption. Your'e just projecting your own sad life to others I reckon, troll boy.

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You are not prejudiced but you now claim to know the self-perceptions of the people of entire country?..you are right, you are not prejudiced..you are just a moron.

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Thats priceless. Yes, of course anyone who recognised thre racism in Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa is "prejudiced". Thats entirely logical, of course, becuase anyone who criticises what whitey is up to obviously hates white people. It must be true, Mammy's boy said so from his mommy's basement.

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And you have failed to refute my assertion following with an ad hominem attack

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Ha ha... I gave an ad hominem in return. Again, I am not responsible for your derisory powers of logic.

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Yes, it is YOU who have already admitted you have not. And apparently aren't up on reading my argument.

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I meant racism, not Sharptons career. I'm getting deja vu with your non-comprehension of feminism.

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My point was NOT that there were blacks against him, but that there were blacks against him within the liberal side.

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I'm sure people disagree with him for any number of reasons. But once again you are demanding I make a total judgement on the basis of one comment. Seeing as I do recognise the existance of collaboration, and also the necessity for criticising it among oppressed populations, I do not fins this remark particularly significant. I do not know, as you seem to allege, that it is meant to encompass all his critics regardless of the criticism. I'm pretty sure Archbishop Tutu has advanced similar arguments.

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The guy portrays those who don't agree with him as being against blacks. Isn't that just a little like Bush and Co portraying anyone that doesn't agree with his policies as being anti-American?

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YOU portray him as portraying anyone who disagrees with him as being against blacks.So lets be clear about something: all *I* said was Dean was deserving of criticism. I did not say Sharpton was a saint. The criticism levelled at Dean has been levelled by other, external, commentators on the American election not least because "centrist" politics appear to be essentially useless as a form of political activity on either side of the atlantic.

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I mean damnit why the F am I having to explain that this was WRONG? Due process WAS happening. At the time he was an ambulance chaser and a self-promoting provocateur. If conditions had been reversed he WOULD have been on the opposite side just to make his name on the race issue!

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Attribution of malicious motive again. Thats character assasination.Ity seems to me is that all you want is confirmation of your assumptions. You assume that there was no racism relevant in this case, you assume therefore that sharpton was a provocateur. It seems to me highly probable that due process would in practice be racist in the US, and that Sharpton was entirely correct to start from that RESONABLE position.Thats exactly what makes hiim credible.

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The evidence has come out, the jury is in, the fair jury and thankfully he was shown to be a two bit phony and he has apologized! The fact that he tries to spin it with a few "Shouldn't I believe a GIRL?" and "But THEY have done worse!" shouldn't be able to mask the underlying stench.

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So you rule out that it was a legitimate and genuine perception on his part, and assert confidently that it was pernicious and that he knew it to be at the time.Now THAT sounds to me like the equivalent of Bushes allegations of anti-americanism: anyone who defends blacks against racism is an ambulance chasing provocateur and a liar.And NONE of this distraction has nothing to do with whether Dean was worthy of criticism. He is, in my eyes, and I'm glad Sharpton was there to do it. I do not thinik Dean should be crticised BECAUSE of Sharptons statement, and so discrediting Sharpton would not make any difference to my view on the matter. Nonetheless it is extremely worrying to see people turning away from the argument about actually existing racism in favour of moral criticism of an individual. It is absurdly arrogant to claim that anger in ablack community exists BECAUSE of this person, that looks to me only to be an attempt to explain away contrary views with a conspiracy theory of how they were "duped" by this "operator".

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Wow, that must be convenient. You make assertions and do nothing that might actually interfere with them.

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Yes, its obviously wholly invalid for me to judge America on its behaviour instead of its rhetoric.

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Buddy, the guy APOLOGIZED! It may be true that people are bringing it up again to highlight one of his poor performances (and his hypocrisy at pointing fingers at others for lying) but that does not mean he didn't do what he did.

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Again... that appears to be a radical interprtation of the "apology" I was able to find. If you want me to draw any conclusions from this alleged apology, you will have to show it. Hearsay counts for shit.

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When in a pinch he uses the race issue to separate himself from any opponent. Even when it is unfair to do so.

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That may or may not be true. It certainly was NOT true in the case of Dean, which is what you initially claimed.

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> The Vets have spoken (he betrayed 2.5 million Vets), he can not be trusted

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Its amazing that speaking out on Vietnam is seen to Kerry's DIS-credit these days. Vietnam appears to have been totally rehabilitated.