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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan. There was never any need to create "Satan". Is what you are saying that hypothetically there was never any need to create the possibility of evil? What about the possibility of ignoring God? On the one hand, you guys complain that He never reveals Himself. On the other hand, you have chosen to go with the "evidence" that proves His absence. Should God have hypothetically given you this freedom?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
No, it is not found. There are none that specifically refute the notion either, however.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
As you yourself would say, religious dogma and/or shared societal ideas about God and Gods nature are not limited exclusively to the book now known as the Bible.
Which of course lends support to your assertion that God is a product of human myth and legend. I believe that this is not exclusively the case. I believe that God exists and would exist without any Bibles, stories, or legends. Where we may have a point of contention involves a consensus on what characteristics such a Creator of all seen and unseen would actually have apart from what humans want Him to have.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan. jar writes: Can you help us with Biblical passages that support that position? In addition, I disagree with your idea that GOD is complete, rather than simply good. To me, it seems more logical that evil was created as a necessary possibility (in order to preserve free will) rather than as an absolute yang countering goods yin. I realize that Isaiah says otherwise...but I am allowing my own belief to further explain the God I want rather than quite possibly the GOD who is. If the GOD WHO Is is totally unlike the God who in my mind seems more fair and just, I would be extremely disillusioned and defiant towards such a Being. I have heard entire sermons describing why God is good all the time and all the time God is good. It is a bumper sticker in contemporary Christianity. Having Satan as a plot device...a villain who freely chose to rebel...is better in that it gives us something to resist and to hate. How on earth would we ever get along with a GOD Who not only was indifferent to our prayers but Who was at times evil towards us?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why does God need me so badly that He's willing to burn me if I ignore Him? More likely is the belief that YOU need Him and will burn yourself by playing with foreign leprechauns.
How does that differ from your attitude toward leprechauns? My attitude towards leprechauns is similar to my attitude towards a pair of fake Air Jordans sold on e-bay. I go with quality and have chosen what I consider the top quality product. You remain unconvinced that you even need a pair of Jordans and point out to us that they are all shoes. So essentially you are asking us (me) why you should buy what I market. Correct? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: The Trinity is an invention of a time hundreds of years after Jesus, not something that existed at the time any of the Bible stories were written. The Trinity is a human creation and has whatever meaning humans give it. I dont believe that humans simply invent doctrines without at least believing that the doctrine is sound.
Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith writes: The Swiss theologian Karl Barth was asked by a student during a seminar in the United States, Dr. Barth, what is the most profound thing you have ever learned in your study of theology? Barth thought for a moment and then replied, Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. The students giggled at his simplistic answer, but their laughter was of a nervous sort as they slowly realized Barth was serious.(...)Barth gave a simple answer to a question of profundity. In doing so he was calling attention to at least two vitally important notions. (1) That in the simplest Christian truth there resides a profundity that can occupy the minds of the most brilliant people for a lifetime. (2) That even in learned theological sophistication, we never really rise above a child’s level of understanding the mysterious depths and riches of the character of God. Thus I can agree that we "make up" the God we wish to worship and that reality suggests that the GOD Who Is is likely unlike the One we desire. I challenge that notion for two reasons. (Both of them beliefs that I choose to embrace)1) GOD if GOD exists wants a relationship with us. If this isn't true, what point would there even be to believe? 2) GOD has given us an inner unction to find Him.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What DOES The Bible say?
I was reading the Athanasian Creed recently. To wit: quote: Martin Luther was quoted summing it up this way:
quote:Thus Luther takes Colossians 2:9 as his Biblical snippet justifying the Trinitarian Doctrine. Do you know much about the history of how the Athanasian Creed came about?Hopefully, it was motivated by a desire for clarity rather than political ulterior motives...I will have to study it more. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Thats exactly what I have been asking myself lately as I struggle with believing in a God that does not help me nor favor me in any way. He may as well not exist, though I still believe that he does.
If God isn't useful to us, what's the point of having a God?ringo writes: The father analogy does not help me relate to God...mainly because my father always took care of me and provided help from the day I was 5 until the day he passed (I was 17). He left money for the family and I essentially lived on that money supplemented by my own income for 30 years. Now, as I struggle with getting older and paying my bills, I feel abandoned by God as father figure. I refuse, however, to embrace the ridiculous ideas brought forth here at EvC that disprove and discredit God and Jesus as real presences in human lives.
To recap: The Bible emphasizes a metaphorical father-child relationship between God and His people. I contend that that relationship implies an obligation to protect His people. His people expect that protection (e.g. Psalm 23). You don't seem to feel inclined to refute my contention with Biblical references, so the contention stands. Phat writes:
Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also?ringo writes: Perhaps Jesus, being human, was the finite piece. Since He is connected to an infinite God, (at one end) and an infinite Holy Spirit(at the other end) He becomes One with them. Draw the line. You can only divide it at finite places. You can't have three infinite pieces when you only have two infinite ends. The only problem I would hypthetically have now is reasoning why there needs to be a GOD (The Father) and a Holy Spirit. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Knock this crap off! Your copypasta is not welcome in this topic! It is off topic and Faith is inactive here and you are answering a post from over a year ago. Knock it off.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good point. After reviewing a lot of what he writes, I conclude that he is not simply trolling us...he does bring up some considerations in a lengthy and cluttered way. I just dont have time to read all of that pasting. I wish that LNA would be more concise and provide us with links rather than full quotes all of the time.
You wanted simple evidence from him, but he does not have it...nor do any of us. If I dig through his pasta, I find some scholarly commentaries that suggest that the whole affair was not simply made up as a political move, but I dont have the time nor desire to study the lengthy pastings that LNA gives us. I guess I was just frustrated seeing all that dumped on a topic I recently opened up so that candle 2 could explain why the Trinity was not a valid Christian concept...which he has so far not done. Maybe I cant expect every poster to be as concise as I want. You likely feel the same way about many of us. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I can live with Him being human while on earth. What any of us are after death nobody knows. I cannot accept that He never existed...and feel that the scholarly arguments are far from conclusive. It makes no sense to me why people would spin a story out of thin air for two thousand years if there were nothing to it. I feel that Jesus existed...as do you...and that there is an unseen Creator. The belief that this Creator is eternally living and seeks to become personal with we humans is plausible though not as simple as it is presented through the dogma. But can you live with Jesus being finite? You science types would more likely believe in a superior intelligence being another advanced species somewhere in the near distant universe. Perhaps this has merit. And candle 2 dismisses evolution as a fairytale, largely because someone else mentioned that idea first. Evolution makes sense, but I do not believe that God does NOT make sense...I think that that idea too is plausible. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Do you consider yourself part of any religion at all, or do you simply like copying and pasting old documents to make a particular case or another?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Do you have any theory on the Holy Spirit? To me, the Holy Spirit is a belief. It cannot be a fact, nor can any amount of early writings document, prove, or disprove it. Back to my original question:
LNA writes: Do you have a belief at all, or are you just one who likes researching old documents? See...to me, old documents can prove interesting yet not entirely conclusive. Personally, I thought you had a good case going when you engaged the mythicists. All evidence I read shows me that Richard Carrier is trying to make a name for himself and for some odd reason has a motive to make Jesus vanish. Bart Ehrman responds to and defends himself from Richard Carrier here. Fuller Reply to Richard Carrier Admittedly, I have no solid evidence against Carriers claims and my judgment against his integrity is my own personal opinion. Hell, I'm not a Christian, but I feel like - simply - invoking the Holy Council of Nicaea and just leaving it at that. I am convinced that many of these mythicists have an axe to grind, however. Even our very own Theodoric, himself aligned with the mythicists, shows his feelings towards Christians many times. He is no doubt delighted to attempt to make Jesus go away. It will never happen, however. Even if only a myth, the legend will continue as long as humanity lives. And though some Christians are in fact hateful and uninformed, there are many more good ones. Times will also come upon us where the belief will strengthen. Mark my words.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
LNA writes: I will agree with the idea that pauls Epistles helped form the bedrock of Christianity, particularly later Protestant Dogma. They are well written and in some parts seem inspired by more than a simple authors imagination, but of course we have no objective proof.
Do Paul's Epistles help to inform us?Candle2 seems to have some questions about this whole Holy Spirit theology. I disagree with candles whole two beings thing. candle2 writes: I think candle2 is wrong, but I need to do a bit of bible reading first. The Holy Spirit as a person is a lie. Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. Nowhere are we told that receiving eternal life is dependant on this belief. And you never discuss your personal spirituality...are you atheist? Zoroastrian? unknown?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Anyone who does not understand that the Father and Son are two distinct beings needs to take reading comprehension courses. And yet there is but One God. Jesus is Gods human character. I think you agree. And I see your point about there being no necessity of having 3 in 1. 2 in 1 is enough to handle without confronting the legalistic polytheist accusations. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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