Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 61 (9209 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: The Rutificador chile
Post Volume: Total: 919,503 Year: 6,760/9,624 Month: 100/238 Week: 17/83 Day: 8/9 Hour: 0/0


EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Occupy Wall Street

Summations Only

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Occupy Wall Street
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


(2)
Message 4 of 602 (636000)
10-03-2011 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
10-03-2011 3:02 PM


IMHO, everything needs to start with campaign finance reform. Nothing in US politics can change unless this is changed. Politicians do not want to lose their office, and corporations offer them millions of dollars that they can then use to keep their office. While there may not be an overt quid pro quo, I think we can all agree that there is an unspoken "this for that".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 10-03-2011 3:02 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by fearandloathing, posted 10-03-2011 5:03 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 7 by xongsmith, posted 10-03-2011 5:17 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


(1)
Message 16 of 602 (636015)
10-03-2011 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by xongsmith
10-03-2011 5:17 PM


This is where the internet stuff going viral can help us. People should see where the money is coming from and in what quantity and vote for those whose money best represents what they want. Big Pharma? Don't vote for them. Or - if you like Big Pharma, vote for them. See who they owe, see who is pulling the strings.
All of them get money from Big Pharma/Oil/Business. That's the problem. Why else do you think that Anti-Trust exemptions for health insurance companies were considered untouchable when the last health insurance reform bill was written? Both parties agreed to this.
Vote for the least monied candidates!
Assuming that this same cadidate also shares your views on how government should work for you.
What's really sad is that that horrid despicable concept of robo-calling potential voters actually works. USA voters really need a big slap upside the head.
I deleted a whole section of my first post that dealt with this. It's hard for me to separate "stupid voter" from "voter who does not vote like me". This is probably difficult for many of us. I would hope that this thread would not decay into partisan politics, but instead focus on a better system that actually gets our voices heard no matter what those voices are.
At the same time, how many of those voices are merely echoes from corporate driven PAC's and Astroturf movements? How many people vote according to an NRA pamphlet when none of the candidates will actually vote for a change in gun laws? How many people have actually thought through the implications of a socialized health care system? Why are you for it or against it? Do you have solid reasons for that stance?
I can respect a person who holds different views than me if they have solid reasons for holding that position. However, too many times I have seen people who hold a different position because of lies and misinformation. That is VERY frustrating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by xongsmith, posted 10-03-2011 5:17 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by hooah212002, posted 10-03-2011 5:55 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 39 of 602 (636153)
10-04-2011 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
10-03-2011 7:10 PM


But the truth here is that even when the youth base has been the most energized anyone has ever seen, they can't get voter participation above 40%.
I have had a few discussions with people 21-30 over a few pints. What I hear most is that they do not think their vote will matter, and there is no one that represents their views. My advice to them is to at least register and show up at the polls even if they don't vote. If politicians start seeing a big discrepancy between voter roll calls and number of votes submitted then perhaps some politicians will start to change their agenda to include younger americans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 10-03-2011 7:10 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by xongsmith, posted 10-04-2011 3:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 40 of 602 (636154)
10-04-2011 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Coyote
10-03-2011 10:30 PM


Re: What George Said
Does this apply to the Tea Party, or just to left wing protesters?
It applies to both. Look at the number of TP candidates that turned up in Republican primaries, and some of them won. A progressive wing of the Democratic party could form the same way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 10-03-2011 10:30 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Coyote, posted 10-04-2011 11:53 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 47 of 602 (636170)
10-04-2011 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Coyote
10-04-2011 11:53 AM


Re: What George Said
Democrats, and especially the far left, has been organized in this fashion since the late '60s.
They know the value of organization and grass-roots movements. That's part of why they hate the Tea Party so much. They don't like the competition.
Then their organization sucks. They could barely get a health INSURANCE reform bill through Congress. They completely failed at the progressive push for health care reform.
As to the Tea Party, I don't dislike them because they are organized. I dislike them because of what they stand for. There really isn't any competition since very few progressives will find anything to like in the TP movement. I think it could also be argued that neither movement is competing for centrist votes. It is really the centrist voters that need to start leaning one way or the other in order for either agenda to gain momentum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Coyote, posted 10-04-2011 11:53 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 59 of 602 (636186)
10-04-2011 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by xongsmith
10-04-2011 3:26 PM


I've often held the view the every office on the Ballot should have an option to select "None Of The Above". And if None Of The Above wins, then everyone that was on the Ballot for that office is booted off the ballot and a new slate of candidates is drawn up and the voting is tried again.
I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it would be practical. Run-off elections for local offices in my part of the country always draw a much, much smaller crowd than the initial election. It is hard enough to get people to show up for the first election, much less a second, or perhaps a third.
A better solution would be to rework the primary process, IMHO. I am not sure how it could be done, but we need a better way to get top candidates onto the ballot, perhaps even outside of party lines.
My Democrat father was on a vote-counting team with a Republican woman and, as they worked through the stack to corroborate the selections with each other, they were perplexed at the sheer number of completely blank ballots - it was as if these voters took the ballot, went behind the curtain, counted up to 50, came out and sent the ballot into the box blank, and left, thinking "There - I've voted. I've done my duty."
Wow. Didn't know it was that common.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by xongsmith, posted 10-04-2011 3:26 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 65 of 602 (636194)
10-04-2011 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rahvin
10-04-2011 3:39 PM


Re: What George Said
The problem is that, after the election, the base expected to see some "hope and change," some "yes we can;" and instead of continuing to rally his support, instead of hosting massive events with tens of thousands of attendees like during his election campaign to sell his proposals and pressure Congress with his massive public mandate...Obama went and started asking the minority Republicans for permission and giving up on campaign promises as "impossible to push through Congress" right from the beginning.
Some of this had to do with the filibuster rules in the Senate. There were only 59 Dems, not enough to bust a filibuster if the Reps wanted to mount one. Frankly, Dems should have called the bluff and let them cry like babies for 3 months after which they could have enacted a half way decent bill.
This also brings up another important point related more to the OP. Should we get rid of the filibuster? It does offer the minority protection of the tyranny of the majority, but is it worth it? In the last 10 years it is used to such a high degree that Congress has come to a screaching halt. It forces the majority to capitulate to the minority to such a degree that most bills are a worthless hybrid. You can hardly blame the voter for thinking that their vote doesn't matter when Congress gets nothing done, other than preening in front of the TV camera.
In addition to the changes we have mentioned earlier, should there be a way to fast track an agenda based on voter mandate? Should the President be able to bust a filibuster and force a vote on a bill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Rahvin, posted 10-04-2011 3:39 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 564 of 602 (640321)
11-08-2011 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Dogmafood
11-05-2011 8:36 AM


Re: Democracy
What laudable aspect of representative democracy would we lose by adopting a system of direct democracy?
One interesting aspect of representative democracy (at least to me) is that they can pass a law that is beneficial to society that would probably not pass a general vote amongst the public. For example, civil rights laws may not have passed if put in front of the general public, and certainly not in the South. In some ways, we expect a representative government to pass laws that are good for the country, even if they are unpopular. While we may distrust government in some ways, we distrust the judgement of the hoi polloi even more.
On top of that, representative democracies protect us from our own military. If not for an elected "head of state" there would be nothing stopping a general from becoming a dictator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Dogmafood, posted 11-05-2011 8:36 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by jar, posted 11-08-2011 3:51 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 567 by Dogmafood, posted 11-08-2011 9:44 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 581 of 602 (640449)
11-09-2011 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 567 by Dogmafood
11-08-2011 9:44 PM


Re: Democracy
So in other words, we don’t, as a whole, know what is good for us.
To use an analogy, a child may understand that vegetables are good for them but they would still not eat the vegetables if given the vote.
If our governments actions were a direct and theoretically perfect reflection of our citizens opinions would the world not be a better place?
Which citizen's reflection should we look at? Those for or against gun control? Those for or against socialized health care? Those for or against abortion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by Dogmafood, posted 11-08-2011 9:44 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by Dogmafood, posted 11-10-2011 8:39 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10302
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 589 of 602 (640548)
11-10-2011 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by Dogmafood
11-10-2011 8:39 AM


Re: Democracy
Yeah ok but we are not children. Why should the free adults of the world be treated like children? You can eat your broccoli and live to be 104 and spend the last 7 yrs of your life waiting to die. Blind and bed ridden and costing the rest of us a fortune. Can I not choose to smoke and drink and check out at 72 with a massive heart attack? Wisdom and intelligence are just as relative as everything else. That is the whole strength of democracy.
In my analogy, the child was the country, not an individual. You are right, you can choose for yourself what you will eat and how you will live, as long as it does not affect others. However, we are talking about decisions within government that affect everyone.
I am not wholly convinced of my own argument, so it will not be hard to push me away from it. However, I do have this gut feeling that we feel it necessary to buffer ourselves from the decisions of government. That buffer is a representative democracy. We need a proxy to make the correct decisions, even if they are unpopular.
Here is another example of what I am talking about (it is admittedly weak, but worth some thought). Have you ever not wanted to go some event, but a part of you still kind of wants to go? What if your BFF calls up and asks you to go? At least for me, I hem and haw for awhile. I want to be "forced" to go, if you get my drift. The conversation usually ends with "Fine. I'll go. But you owe me one." The funny thing is that I usually end up having fun in the long run.
This is sort of how I see this working. We want someone to make the tough decisions. We want someone to make us take the bitter pill and eat our vegetables. I don't know if a direct democracy could make this work. Perhaps it could.
All of them.
We can not pass laws that contradict each other. We can not have open access to abortion and ban the practice at the same time. We can not have unfettered access to firearms, and pass laws which limit that same access. There are simply ideas that can not mix.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by Dogmafood, posted 11-10-2011 8:39 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Dogmafood, posted 11-10-2011 10:13 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024