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Author Topic:   Jesus The false prophet
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 210 of 213 (630233)
08-23-2011 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by hERICtic
08-22-2011 1:22 PM


Re: No Preview Allowed ?
Concerning NT authors expecting and wanting Christ's to return perhaps in their lifetimes.
Of course its relevant! If the author believed the return of Jesus was imminent, than it backs up my assertion, not yours. If you want to go down the route that perhaps he was just mistaken, well, if hes mistaken, why not other authors?
The route that I am going is that the evidence more than indicates they responsibly included both Christ's and their own words furnishing the church for a long distance race of endurance.
You cannot make the case that we only read words preparing the believers for Christ's second coming in months.
For example: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:35)
In other words, though the universe itself dissolve, His promises cannot fail to come to pass.
For example: "But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like on day. The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9)
Endurance and longsuffering are mentioned much by Peter for the very cause of equiping the believers for the long distance race in case the church age is longer than they anticipated.
Jay writes:
And that is good advice for ALL Christians down through the centries. It is STILL good advice even if the Lord's Second Coming is still 500 years off.
A follower of Jesus cannot go wrong to be alert and sober minded and praying. And such vigilance will be rewarded one day.
You REALLY miss the point here my unbelieving friend.
Heretic:
The advice Peter may have been giving could very well apply to anyone through the centuries but it does not change two crucial issues.
He believed the end times were near.
He was talking to a specific audience most of the time, stating the end times were near.
The Christian should always live as if he only has today to live unto Jesus.
Yesterday is under the blood of Christ. Tomorrow is under God's sovereignty. We only have today to live unto Jesus.
Jesus said concerning the unfaithful servant - "But if that evil slave says in his heart, My master delays, and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
And will cut him asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrits. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 24:48-51)
There are two extremes to be avoided. One is to become a sloppy servant thinking that the Master has delayed His coming and we can therefore live sinfully. The other is to become so sure He is coming as to neglect reasonable living responsbilities and thereby causing disrepute to the Gospel.
The Second Thessalonian letter deals mainly with adjusting the attitude of those thinking they can drop responsibilities because of the soon return of Jesus.
In Matthew 24 Jesus teaches that the vigilant saints will be working in the field or grinding at the mill when He suddenly raptures them:
"At that time two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes." (Matt. 24:40-42)
This is a teaching of disciples going about their responsibilties in a normal way. History has its share of occurances of people dropping normal daily living to go wait for Jesus in white robes.
The lattest case was with Harold Camping. Christ will come. But the point is that Christ is HERE with the disciples living within them as the Holy Spirit. And they should live so as when He comes it is neither shock or surprise.
They simply are transported physically where their inward heart and affections already have daily been.
The more time logged in this state of watching and vigilance in His presence the more saturation of the soul of the Holy Spirit takes place. And Christ needs, from the long ages, a remnant of those permeated and transformed in soul to be fit to be co-kings with Him.
The delay has its useful purposes.
"But know this, that if the house holder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken unto.
For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (Matt. 24:43,44)
Incidently, Jesus taught that in this sudden rapture in an hour that we expect not, some would be working in the field (Matt. 24:40) ie. working during the daytime. And some the same time would be asleep on the bed (Luke 17:34) during the nighttime. This implies both that the earth is round and that the gospel will have spread around the globe.
When He comes it will be day on one section of the planet and night on another section.
Context.
Jay writes:
What lovers do not want and expect to be with their LOVE as soon as they can ?
True. But Peter when using "you" was not addressing you today, but those in that era.
This is the word of God. And we definitely feel it is written for the sake of believers down through all the centries.
That it circulated beyond Peter's expectation is not relevant. His ministry was for the whole church universal.
"And we have the prophetic word made more firm, to which you do well to give heed as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of one's own interpretation; For no prophecy was ever borne by the will of man, but men spoke from God while being borne by the Holy Spirit." (Second Peter 1:19-21)
The Apostle Peter is pointing his audience to the Scripture, the prophetic word of God, which is enduring and timeless. His own letter has joined the inspired Scripture.
It is God speaking to the church throughout whatever long ages need to commence.
Imagine a coach talking to his team. Stating that "you" should play hard, play with desire, play to win, play fair.....
This could apply to anyone in the future. But it does not change the fact he is addressing a specific audience, those in front of him.
And in the "Christian game" if you will, it is still going on.
You are the one who deems that it is NOT.
You are the one foolishly assuming that it is all over.
You are reading the black and white on the pages of the Bible. You need the Holy Spirit's speaking to your heart.
You should try reading a few lines of Matthew or Peter's Epistles and then taking them to God in prayer. Read a little - Pray a little.
Read a little - Pray a little.
You are applying some liturary skills to the black and white on the page. But you need the Spirit of Christ to enlighten you inwardly as Peter spoke -
"And we have the prophetic word made more firm, to which you do well to give heed as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." (2 Pet. 1:19)
You should read the Bible with an openess of heart, willing to be changed by the Spirit of God. You need the morning star of heaven's light to rise in your heart.
Your argument only works if Peter never gave a time line, but he does. He believed Jesus would return quickly, so he was giving his advice to those then and there who would be present for Jesus. He was not addressing those thousands of years in the future.
The following passage equips the Christian church for the possibility of a longer than expected long distance run to the second coming of Christ:
"But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that alll advance to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:8,9)
The passage of TIME is used by God to work more of His life and nature into the believers. It is not solely a matter of meeting some objective deadline. It is a matter of we and God using the time to be united and mingled together.
He is about changing people into the image of Christ from within.
The unbeliever cares nothing for this. He only cares about a timeline. He doesn't think about God wroughting Himself into his personality. He doesn't consider the will of God to work His Spirit into your soul.
Nothing of the inward being being touch is a concern to the skeptic. Nothing of the word of God even reaches the surface of his skin let alone the inner chambers of his soul. It is all outward to him of schedules, timelines, deadlines of prophecy.
But Peter said the believers are "partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption which is in the world through lust." (2 Pet. 1:4)
God needs time to work His divine nature into the kingdom people. God needs time to infuse their mind, emotion, and will with His element - to permeate them with life. That is to conform them to the image of Christ.
He needs to saturate with His divine nature those who have believed. And He needs the Gospel to continue to be preached to all the nations.
While we await His promise we serve, we enjoy, we "hasten" the day of the Lord. We tend to our legitimate responsibilities and testify of the Christ by Whom we live.
As Peter wrote we need time to grow in grace - "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Pet. 3:18)
We are not just impatiently watching our clock to be picked up as is by the Second Coming train. We need and utilize the time to GROW in grace and to be deeper and deeper PARTAKERS of the divine nature.
This is need for the building of the church and the building of the kingdom of God. Christ is the building material. The only thing we can take into the next age is the Jesus Christ who has been worked into the fabric of our personalities.
So we say with Paul - "And let us not lose heart in doing what is good, for in the proper season we will reap if we do not faint." (Gal. 6:9)
Why don't you FOR ONCE ... read Peter's epistles and take not of all the words centered on endurance, patience, long-suffering and attributes design to furnish the believer for the long run.
You still have not truly addressed any issue I presented regarding Matthew. You keep ignoring the crucial aspects that the transfiguration fails to address.
But since brought up Luke...
Yes, it states "eights days after Jesus said this", which is just giving the time frame. Eight days later. Thats it. It does not say one is connected to the other. In fact, I already showed you using Matthew it cannot refer to the transfiguration.
Luke is drawing attention to the connection between the sayings and what he is about to recount. He is doing the same that the other two Gospels did.
There are multitudes of other events in which Luke did not inform us how much time occured between some sayings and some event. When he does it must have some significance.
The Bible is economical and purposeful. And like the six days of Mark and Matthew, the eight days of Luke purposely connects the promise with the event.
Perhaps Luke was including the day Jesus spoke and the day of the transfiguration and arriving at 8 rather than 6, had Mark and Matthew figured the counting of days differently.
Now lets examine what Luke has to say (which Matthew did also, but I failed to mention):
26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.
So you're telling me that of those Jesus is addressing, one or more would be ashamed of his words? Really? Or do you think it makes more sense to say it applies to mankind in general?
There are Christians who are ashamed to be too readily identified with belonging to Jesus Christ. It is not always easy. There is a price to pay to bear His name at times.
There is a bumper sticker - "If you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you ?" .
The whole teaching is for following the Lord Jesus with absoluteness. This is a losing of some worldly soulish enjoyment. But in losing the soul now we will gloriously enjoy the transformed soul now and in the coming kingdom.
The three disciples got a glimpse of this extraordinary enjoyment.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by hERICtic, posted 08-22-2011 1:22 PM hERICtic has not replied

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