Jesus The false prophet

Hey Buzz,Im not sure if you're responding to me or not. I'm going to assume you were. If not, I apologize.You still have not addressed the Transfiguration issue. In fact, you have ignored my question quite a few times now.It cannot be the Transfiguration for the issues I outlined. Your belief that its the Transfiguration is an excuse for the utter failure of the prophecy.Now you are bouncing around trying to find some examples of fulfilled prophecy to perhaps show if one prophecy came to pass, then all must. This is a classic example of an of such an obsure prediction that its useless.Show me in the gospels that the authors believed the world was the world we live in today, size wise. Afterall, Jesus was taken to the highest mountain to be shown ALL the kingdoms of the world. Obviously it was believed the world was very small back then (let alone round). In other words, the author was refering to that area, not the entire planet.Where is the time frame? How do you know the author didnt believe all the nations of the world would hear of Jesus in ten years? 50 years? 500 years? Its a meaningless prophecy.To be more clear, if the author thought Jesus was going to return in (lets just say 50 years) and believed that all the nations would hear his message first, then it changes everything.Without a specific time frame, its just another long list of useless prophecies Christians throw out.

Hi Buzz.I noticed you never seem to address the issues presented or questions asked.I asked a few times how it could be the transfiguration when Jesus angels were not present, some disciples did not die nor was mankind rewarded. You have yet to answer.I pointed out how the gospels being preached to every nation could not be fulfiled prophecy when the earth was thought of as much smaller back then. You didnt address this. I know its before. I never said otherwise.I never claimed it was to occur in 50 years. Sorry if I confused you. I just threw out dates to make a point. The point I was making is this:Only recently could you claim that "all" nations have been given the message.The Bible states his return would occur after this occurence.Therefore, you are claiming that the return of Jesus could not be 2000 years ago bc all nations were not preached to.My point is that your claim is baseless. The author never gave a time frame. He very well may have believed it was to occur 100 years from then (I'll use that number instead of 50 to avoid confusion) that all nations were to be given the message.In other words, without a specific time frame, its so open ended, we cannot tell when he was refering to.Also, the "world" back then was vastly "smaller". "All nations" could and most likely refered to only those nations in that part of the world. You accused Franko of ignoring the context yet its you who is doing so.Jesus also stated he would come in great glory when he returns! So how do we know which one he is refering to? By reading in context.Jesus did NOT only state he would come in great glory in regards to Matthew 16. He said he would arrive in great glory, with angels, with some disciples dead and mankind rewarded for their deeds.Did all that happen during the transfiguration? Yes or no?I even gave you scripture of what is to occur when the angels appear from Matthew 13 and 25. Did those occur during the transfiguration? Yes or no? I have addressed every issue you presented while you have ignored most of mine. I asked simple questions, you ignore them.You have not presented any evidence yet. You keep harping that it refers to the transfiguration, yet have provided zero evidence to support your case. I have done otherwise.Please address my questions.Did those events occur during the transfiguration?Thanks.Edited by hERICtic, : Added some information

Jaywill,As always your post is well thought out and indepth, but as usual, far too long. LOL!It would take me a week to cover everything. But a few things stood our right away. Once I read this, I know it would be fruitless to get into any indepth debate with you. This is simple comprehension.Matthew 16: 28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.Jesus is talking directly to his disciples, in front of him. He clearly states YOU (as hes talking to them) and standing HERE.To say this does not apply directly to them, and means others besides those Jesus is talking to is ridiculous. If that is the path you are going to go down, every pronoun then has lost its meaning.Also, to suggest "age" means thousands of years later is absurd. After telling is disciples about this "age", his disciples ask "when" the end of the age shall occur. Jesus clearly lays out the "when", with them being witnesses. Wrong. Not once in the entire Bible is "this generation" mean anything but the timeline of the present, the one they are in.If fact, Matthew 23 also uses "this generation" and it refers to the one they are presently in.

So let me understand this. You will completely ignore the fact Jesus states that those standing in front of him, some disciples shall be alive, some shall be dead (of those standing right in front of him) when they see the "son of man coming in his kingdom" and will stick with the Transfiguration although it completely contradicts this premise? Ok, fair enough. "This generation" refers to the one they are presently in. Jesus is comparing it to other ones. You didnt address the issue I presented in most of your replies "This generation" is used quite a few times in scripture. Not once is "this generation" used for anything other than the time frame they are in. Not once. You presented scripture that does not use "this generation" instead.Also, lets look at the context of Matthew 23 and 24. Whom is Jesus speaking to? Be honest here. Is he talking to you, today or those standing in front of him? It most certainly does refer to his return.For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matt 16:27Does this sound like the return of Jesus? Yes or no? Why or why not?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Matthew 10: 9 Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.Whom is Jesus speaking to? When are "they" suppose to do what Jesus asks?

You're kidding, right?If I say pick SOME shirts out of your drawer, does that mean all? No. It means a few while others will be excluded.There isnt any way around this. Jesus clearly states of those standing there, some will perish. All did. Jesus never returned. Now go read Chapter 10, go read Chapter 24. In both chapters Jesus clearly lays out the calamity that will follow, the hardships his disicples will endure, how some will die before his return. Show me the scripture that states at the Transfiguration that mankind was rewarded for their deeds. Show me who perished.This fits perfectly with the message of the return of Jesus.In reference to "this generation"... No Jay, what you do not understand is that nowhere in scripture does "this generation" mean anything but the currect generation.Show me.In fact, lets take another look at chapter 24. You are obliterating context to make it say something it does not refer to.His disciples ask "when" is the end of the age. Jesus then explains what?He gives a step by step of the signs. The signs that they, the disciples will witness. He tells them what shall occur around them. The calamity, the horror, the death. He tells them to run to the mountains. He tells them they will be persecuted. He tells them to keep watch, be ready. He tells them they will witness all these things.30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.Wait a second. Is Jesus talking about the Transfiguration? Of course not.Coming on clouds, with great glory? With angels?Where else did he mention that?Matthew 16: 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.So Jay, it does not refer to the Transfiguration. It refers to exactly what Jesus described, his return.Now lets continue on with Chapter 24.So Jesus explains all this to his disciples, that these events will occur during their lifetime....34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.So please, do not attempt to tell me suddenly "this generation" means something completely different than the time frame he is refering to. "This generation" is connected to "until all these things occur" What is going to occur? Well, Jesus just laid it out after his disciples asked when is the end of the age...and Jesus then proceeded to tell them they would be witness to it! No. Jesus is ripping into the teachers and the Pharisees, stating how throughout history they've been hypocrites and liars....Matthew 23: 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.The "you" refers to those present, those he is talking to.The blood of those in the past is on their hands. The anger of god will come upon "this generation". That being, the one he is refering to.Now I asked you this earlier about Matthew 10. You said you would not discuss it bc we were discussing Matthew 16. Yet you threw in Matthew 12, Matthew 23, Matthew 24 and Peter.So I think it should not be a problem to discuss this. In fact, its quite imperative because it will shed some light on a few issues.Matthew 10: 9 Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.Whom is Jesus addressing? When are these events to take place?

Hey Jay,Im going to have to wind this down. My apologies. I believe today will be the last day I can further this debate along. Originally I was having a great fun debate with GDR, but due to too many hours at work and family, I had to step aside. I'm only able to have this debate now due to a strike at my company. Thankfully, some issues have been worked out and I'm back to work tomorrow. Still no contract, but its work. And there will be PLENTY of work, long hours to clean up "the mess".Anyway, I'll try to make a better case in this post. A summation so to speak. Hopefully you can respond and I can get in maybe one or two more rebuttels.You seem to be focused on a few issues. You basic case against what I am claim is that 2 Peter states:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.First, most scholars believe it is a forgery. This would render you point moot.Second Epistle of Peter - WikipediaEven if you believe its the same author, another issue arrises.1 Peter is believed by most scholars as an unknown author to begin with. Not Peter the apostle. This again would render your argument moot.But for the sake of argument, lets start with 1 Peter.The author believed the end times were near. Not far off in the future.1 Peter 7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that though they acuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice that you participate in the suffering of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.1 Peter 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.The audience Peter is addressing is not those today, but those back then. Yet Peter clearly lays out that the end times are near and that they will see his glory.So we learn from this that the "glory" can be outside the transfiguration.Now lets go back to the scripture you gave:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.What are these stories he refers to? About the transfiguration? No. They're about his return. The "coming of Christ in power" refers to his return.So Im not sure what 2 Peter does to help your cause. All it admits to is that there are stories of the return of Jesus and that Peter was there to witness the transfiguration.But the biggest problem I have is that you automatically assume since Peter makes X case, that the author of Matthew is making the same case. This is why I hate jumping around from book to book. Different authors believed different thing. Now, I know you think its all one clear cut story, each book furthering along the next, but I would like to keep this within Matthew. Its this book we are addressing certain issues, its this book we should be trying to figure out what he is trying to convey.We started our debate with Matthew 16: 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.So three things are gong to occur when the son of man comes in his fathers glory.1) Angles will be present.
2) Mankind will be rewarded.
3) Some standing there will not be alive.I will now show you with other scripture in Matthew, it could not be the transfiguration, but the return of Jesus.Was mankind rewarded at the transfiguration? No.
Were some disciples dead at the transfiguration? No. You seem to have an issue with "some" and "standing "here". Obviously, if "some" are alive, "some" must be dead. This is simple reading comprehension. Those Jesus is addressing are standing in front of him. This alone negates the Transfiguration.But lets go back a few chapters.Chapter 10.Jesus tells his 12 to preach his message. He tells them they will suffer by the local councils, flogged. Arrested. Brother will betray brother, father betray sons, children will have their parents put to death. They will be persecuted and they are to flee.So does this occur before or after the transfiguration?Lets go jump ahead. Matthew 24.His disciples ask when is the end of the age. Jesus tells them they will be persecuted, hated. Put to death.So now we know Matthew 10 mirrors Matthew 24. When is Matthew 24 to occur? After the transfiguration.What else does Chapter 10 say?Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.Since Chapter 10 is refering to the same "event" as Chapter 24 then we know "before the son of man comes" is not the transfiguration, but his return. The disciples will NOT be able to go through all the towns of Israel before Jesus comes.So now we have a time line. This return must be during some of their lifetimes. Some will be alive, others will not.Go back to Chapter 16. Some will NOT be alive when the "event" occurs.What about angels and rewarding mankind as per Matthew 16?Remember, I've already shown Matthew 24 occurs after the transfiguration.Chapter 24: Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.When is "then"? After the signs laid out starting in the chapter, when the disciples ask "when" is the "end of the age". Notice the "coming", as mentioned in Chapter 10. Notice angles will arrive. Notice it states with great glory.You've tried to show that "glory" refers to the transfiguration, but the "glory" can manifest in many different ways at many different times.But as I've stated, we are already passed the transfiguration.Chapter 25: 31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.Again it states Jesus arriving in his glory. Angels with him. Seperating sheep from goats. Saved and unsaved.What does Chapter 16 say again about this "event"?Angels arriving. Some standing in front of him will be alive, some dead. Mankind being rewarded. Does this line up so far with Chapter 24 and 25? Yes it does. Clearly.The author of Matthew believed the end times were upon them.The return of Jesus was near.

Yep. With all the work backed up....we are back to work tomorrow without an overtime cap. I should be working 14 hour days for about three weeks! Then its probably back to my normal 10-12 hour days. Hence why I wont be able to respond after today for awhile.I agree, who wrote Peter is not something we should get into.Although I am curious if there is a thread on Peter that deals with authorship. Are you aware of any? Of course its relevant! If the author believed the return of Jesus was imminent, than it backs up my assertion, not yours. If you want to go down the route that perhaps he was just mistaken, well, if hes mistaken, why not other authors? The advice Peter may have been giving could very well apply to anyone through the centuries but it does not change two crucial issues.He believed the end times were near.
He was talking to a specific audience most of the time, stating the end times were near.Context. True. But Peter when using "you" was not addressing you today, but those in that era.Imagine a coach talking to his team. Stating that "you" should play hard, play with desire, play to win, play fair.....This could apply to anyone in the future. But it does not change the fact he is addressing a specific audience, those in front of him.Your argument only works if Peter never gave a time line, but he does. He believed Jesus would return quickly, so he was giving his advice to those then and there who would be present for Jesus. He was not addressing those thousands of years in the future. You still have not truly addressed any issue I presented regarding Matthew. You keep ignoring the crucial aspects that the transfiguration fails to address.But since brought up Luke...Yes, it states "eights days after Jesus said this", which is just giving the time frame. Eight days later. Thats it. It does not say one is connected to the other. In fact, I already showed you using Matthew it cannot refer to the transfiguration.Now lets examine what Luke has to say (which Matthew did also, but I failed to mention):26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.27 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.So you're telling me that of those Jesus is addressing, one or more would be ashamed of his words? Really? Or do you think it makes more sense to say it applies to mankind in general?