Jesus The false prophet

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That does not of course preclude Him being Messiah

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Can you elaborate what constitutes a Messiah? This term/premise was introduced in the Hebrew bible which lists a host of traits, deeds and actions which must occur, especially that it will result in the resurrection of the rightious dead - as opposed the Messiah, and that world peace will be seen - not in the future, but by and within such a Messiah's reign. Also, was Moses a Messiah of his time, and why so if yes or no?

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A Messiah is the anointed one of God. Essentially he was to lead the Jewish nation against their enemies, establish Yahweh as King, (with likely the messiah holding that position on behalf of Yahweh), and rebuilding the temple.

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Instead, a holocaust occured, in what remains the greatest defense of faith by a people in all recorded history - not even mentioned in the Gospels. There are a host of factors which a Messiah was ordained to fulfill - but which never included his own sacrifice.

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The peace that they believe they would have is because they would be militarily stronger than their pagan neighbours. That kind of peace is never forever.

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Is it a great crime to pray for help when faced with anihilation by a brutal invader and a depraved Roman emperor who anointed himself as divine - how would you have responded had you been a monotheist?

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I don't agree that Moses was a messiah.

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The Hebrew bible affords him this title; Moses fulfilled the role of saving his people, and was also accorded as the Law Giver, which the world turns by today. Can you name a single law the world follows from the Gospels? Can you see Christianity existing or would there even be a Jesus had Moses not saved his people?

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Jesus fulfilled the role of Messiah but not in the way that they thought it would look. He established a kingdom that was worldwide with Himself as king but it is a kingdom of his followers that are to act as his agents of truth, mercy, love and forgiveness etc for the world.

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Only to those who follow, and the rest are doomed to a very hot place for a very long time - no matter what their deeds and actions may be? Is a bad Christian superior to a good non-christian?

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He said that the temple was no longer where you went for sacrifice

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I will be very impressed if you show such a proof - proven as existing 'BEFORE' - the temple fell, as we see in the prophesy of the dead sea scrolls. Else we can safely say it is a retrospective writing by Romans made centuries after the fact?

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and forgiveness but that He was the sacrifice and that He could forgive sin.

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This is in contradiction of what was said by God himself - which negates the attribute of God is Truth. What I see is that the facts say Moses was and remains the greatest human who ever lived - by period of time, impact and by cencus today. Do the math: 14M Jews, 1.5B Muslims and 2B Christians revere Moses. Does belief transcend reality?

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At the time Jesus prophesied, Jerusalem was occupied by Jews. He prophesied that the Jews would be scattered into the nations

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I may be giving you a hard time, but I am trying to figure out the coherence factor of what is the most powerful religious group. Your post has two BIG TIME errors.That prophesy was made in the Hebrew bible: the factor of precedence must prevail and be credited, else it is a lie by omission.You have to show this as being a contemporary declaration, which has not been made manifest, despite emerging in a time when writing was commonplace. Otherwise I too can prophesize the sun rose this morning.

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It is the holocaust that Jesus forecast would happen if they kept on the path of violent revolution.

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A most perverse and obscene premise. Violent revolution? Judea was attacked and made to pay tribute and taxes - which she did for 150 years. Then depraved Nero introduced the heresy decree to worship his image in the temple - which the Jews rejected. Yet you call this violent revolution. Wow! Yet I see that the Jews have an obligation to assist Christians, who took on the Hebrew bible as their bedrock, but were unable to drop the dead donket of hellinism. Jews also failed in this regard with the Golden Calf story - they had help so their entire dna was altered, else they would not be around today. Those 40 years in the desert was a critical period.

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As far as sacrifice is concerned the temple was the place to go to give sacrifice and be forgiven. Jesus took that sacrifice on the cross and forgave sins. He was and is the Temple of the living God.

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This is Roman guile. Sacrifices in the temple did not negate wanton sins; this only applied to inadvertant sins via accidents. The temple fell with the Jews were tested of their belief with a war with Rome in the defense of belief - nothing to do with Jesus. Fact is, if the Jews never rejected Rome, all Christans would be worshipping Jupiter and Mars today. Do you even know why this greatest of all defenses of belief is not recorded in the Gospels - when it occured in their faces? The prophesy of the temple falling was made by King Solomon, not anyone else, thus was the arc hidden by him.

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Certainly it's no crime to pray for help. I hope I haven't suggested that. The Jewish nation did indeed bravely face a brutal enemy.

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You did not mention it. A million gave their lives and nation, throwing themselves on Roman swords - this has never been equalled in history. This was a greater holocaust than with the Nazis - while the Jews had no choice to save themselves during W.W.II, the Jews of Judea had - but they rejected it without their right to belief. Ths marks humanity's greatest sacrifice.

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My own response probably would have been to be one of the revolutionaries but Jesus brought a different message and what he said would happen did.

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So you would have stood with the Jews against Rome - not what the Gospel adherants advised as a crime by the Jews? This was the choice facing Jews - the notion of rebeliousness is perverse here.

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I agree with you about Moses. When I think of the messiah I think of the messiah that was prophesied in Isaiah and Daniel. The laws that the world follows from the Gospels are the laws that Jesus took from the Hebrew Scriptures. As to whether Christianity would exist without Moses is well above my pay grade. You'll have to ask God about that.

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There are no laws in the Gospels: name one? Christianity could not exist without Moses nor without the Jews challenging Rome.

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Only to those who follow, and the rest are doomed to a very hot place for a very long time - no matter what their deeds and actions may be? Is a bad Christian superior to a good non-christian?

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That is not the message of the Gospels. Read the last part of Matthew 25. It has nothing in there about our theology. God is much more concerned about whether we have loving kind hearts than He is about our theology.

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Both the Gospels and Quran have racist doctrines hinged on names instead of laws. One says no salvation but through me; the other says all who don't follow Mohammed are non-believers and a blessing to kill. In contrast, the Hebrew bible says this:"ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINS [COMMITS A CRIME] IT SHALL PAY - THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER"Which prevails today - check with your local sherriff?

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Here is a C S Lewis quote from The Great Divorce.

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"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. "
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Thy Will refers to Godly laws which tumbled down from Sinai, the greatest event in the universe. Of note is how Moses' name is not attached to a single law - they stand pristine by themselves, accepted as the law by all worldly institutions.

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IamJoseph writes:
I will be very impressed if you show such a proof - proven as existing 'BEFORE' - the temple fell, as we see in the prophesy of the dead sea scrolls. Else we can safely say it is a retrospective writing by Romans made centuries after the fact?

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There is no proof but according to the Gospels Jesus talked a lot about forgiveness of sin. He also said that "I desire mercy not sacrifice". I contend that Jesus saw himself as the man through whom Yahweh visited His people. He was a temple replacement so to speak. This meant that He was the sacrifice and that He could forgive sin.

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I contend that none can overturn what was said by God - not even God, based on the premise God is truth. This is proven when Christian never accept Islam - they demanded Jesus. Europe should have told the apostles the same - get me Moses to verify what you say! It resulted in God being made a cursory after thought - if even that. There is nothing merciful about calling those who observed God's laws for 2000 years before Christianity emerged, as born of the devil. A mysterious force brought this same example back to Europe: Islam told you what you told the Jews.

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Moses certainly made an impact. Abraham can put up the same numbers as well.

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Only with Moses did we hear of a direct revelation with millions present as witness and a hard copy bible emerging; this changed the universe while earning the wrach of every man made divine king. Consider the ultimate metaphoric question applying today:What if all three emerged with different messages, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. Place your bets!Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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I am not prepared to comment on the matter of the unbelieving or believing Jews.

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Do you mean there is another group on the planet who proved their belief more so than the disbelieving Jews, for a longer period and against more existential wars against the mightiest powers in history? Are Jews unbelievers because Christianity says so or because Islam does - it seems that the Jews would be wrong whichever side they looked - and worse if they just remained as Jews.I wonder what would happen if Christians and Muslims were locked up in a room and not allowed out till they resolve their absolute contradictory messages - which are in contradiction of their core doctrines, of history, geography, dates and places - even of the same space-time they are discussing. It seems reasonable this should be demanded of these two systems, otherwise all their claims must go south.Among the first items on the board would be that each prove that a figure called Jesus even existed - they shouldn have no problem here - this was a period when such proof would be simple; writings was commonplace. Each must prove that Jesus existed, but never crucified as well as that he lived a long life in Egypt [says Muslims]; each will have to prove why the immaculate birth is accepted by both but not any resurrection. Each will have to explain why there is no proof of a Roman trial or of a singe apostle, and that the claim the Gospels was written by so many apostles, first in Hebrew then in Greek - with a total vacuum of such proof. Where are your dead sea scrolls - you have never been holocausted and dispersed throughout the nations and held in ghettoes - what's your excuse? Why is there proof of 3,200 year David but not of JC or a single figure in the Gospels?Hardest, how would a Jesus respond, if he even existed, at a Roman trial: remember a heresy decree applied here. How would Jesus react to the charge of not worshipping Jupiter and the Roman emperor - was he a rebelious person in this regard - or only the Jews were rebelous? And how would the Romans react to Jesus in such a trial - would they freely release him and blame the Jews instead? Of course not - so lets invent some beedy eyed, sniggering Jews dancing of another Jews' death - ala Mad [2000 lashes per frame] Mel's passion. Yes that should fix it - the Jews have a history of such acts, right?Maybe a judge would decide both are wrong and the Jews right. Maybe no proof of anything does not conclude in it being true by belief but false by facts of reality. Maybe that is why Christians and Muslims are never seen confronting their own contradictions but attacking Jews instead. Maybe two religions should be very scared if a true and real Messiah does come? The bottom line says, if either one of Christianity or Islam is right - there will be disatser as a result; not so if Judaism is right.

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I would add the Jews to this. I would change it to read -

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I wonder what would happen if Jews,Christians and Muslims were locked up in a room and not allowed out till they resolve their absolute contradictory messages. It seems reasonable this should be demanded of these two systems, otherwise all their claims must go south.

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Of course you would say this, but the equalist seeking demand has no substance and admits to only a lost case scenario. One stands out as an anomaly here: The Hebrew bible does not mention the other two, predates them by 2000 and 2500 years and is not a relacement theology attacking other belief systems with a usurping agenda. It is reasonable that if two systems attack another, they at least should first resolve their own contradictions in their claims. Consider how this would unfold when reduced to a legal action in a stolen car case: the judge would order both of you to get your acts together.

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The bottom line says, if either one of Christianity or Islam is right - there will be disatser as a result; not so if Judaism is right.

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I think it would be a disaster if any of them were right. It would mean that all humanity will forever have to live under a totalitarian regime. It will mean that everyone must either bend their knee to a God they may want to deny or be punished.

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Not so with a closer zoom in. Christianity and Islam have used the chosen factor in the Hebrew bible as a justification of their wrath and deeds against the Jews thoughout their history, justifying robbery as mandated by a lord/allah who winks and nods at them for such crimes. They are aghast this nation has returned - it is an affront to all their beliefs and doctrines. But the Hebrew bible mandates being a light unto others 'by example only' [a light], not by claims all others are unbelievers and a blessing to kill, not via the rake and the sword - two of the most evil forms of chosen there is. The world is facing disaster tomorrow only via two covert forms of chosen which contradict the Hebrew and thereby seeks to negate equal justice for all and inalienable human rights. It's the difference between a system based on magestic laws and two hell bent on NAMES and lawlessness as their only claim to fame. Lets face it - a leap is required here and this is now almost impossible to do - it is akin to jumping off an abyss to resolve what Christianity and Islam have introduced - they are their own worst enemies, but attacking someone else for it.

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from the Tenents of Faith -

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I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, knows all the deeds of human beings and all their thoughts, as it is written, "Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions" (Psalms 33:15).
I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, rewards those who keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.

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Another terrible thought is that the God we would all have to bend our knee to would be a horrible, uncaring, brutal God. He sat back and watched millions and millions of people dill and die for no reason without lifting a finger. And that is just the people who have suffered after the faith began. He would have had to sit back and watch every human who has ever lived prior to the religion forming die without any knowledge of him and with no way of knowing his rules. I would not bow to this god. He is an arsehole. If any of the three monotheistic faiths are proven true, then their god (who is supposed to be all powerful yet has allowed huge amounts of suffering without lifting a finger) is a merciless tyrant. A tyrant who will require our love.

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That is a disaster for humanity in my book.

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The truth appears when we step back from ourselves and watch the big picture. Those who commited great crimes are not anymore in the loop: Mighty Rome, history's greatest super ower, is dead and a pint sized Israel lives. Rocket science what that says. There are 1000's of bricks in the wall and Israel is returned - while Europe and Islam are in their final days of chaos driven from within themselves - not even a Zionist plot applies anymore.Christianity and Islam must cease being SUBJECT TO JEWS belief systems as the condition of their belief in God, and accept that Israel's destiny is not in their hands, nor the EU, UN, USA or any other entity but the one who established her. Nor is Israel existing an evil thing. Your own Pope canonised this factor for you that Israel has its own indeoendent mandate unrelated to Christianity and Islam. Instead of clinging to Jerusalem and Hebron, changing historical names of Samaria to WEST BANK and Arab Muslims to Palestinians, why not go and establish sacred places all over the world also?If someone comes to you and speaks in the name of Moses or God, altering their original message with two contradicting reports - you must demand proof by Moses or by God - as did the Jews when confronted with Moses - they demanded direct proof from the Creator - and they got it! Instead, you guys accepted the word of others in far removed third person reports as revelation - and you got slimed with both being mutually contradicted. Understand clearly what this means and who is right according to what all the world knows as right:"ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINS IT SHALL PAY - THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER."This is wrong:"ONLY THRUGH ME COMES SALVATION""NO GOD WITHOUT MOHAMMED AS HIS PROPHET"Both say the same thing - both can't be right. Rocket science.Had a Christian or Muslim been a Jew in Judea 2000 years ago, there would not be a remotest chance of accepting what is said in the Gospels or Quran. The stiff necks never did and they have been proven correct. How dare they! Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

Did Jesus:Observe the first two commandments from Sinai?Agree a Trinity as one and divine man?Observe the Sabbath?Observe the Passover service - was it recited in Aramaic or Hebrew?Would he even respond to a latin name?Did he confront Rome's heresy decree - how?Why would he attack rowdy money changers performing a God given commandment for 2000 years - but be silent on Roman and Greek concubines and image worship in Jerusalem?OK, he never said anything of himself - we have no writings of Jesus - by Jesus. We do of all other prophets like Moses, David, Solomon, Iasiah, Micah, etc, etc. They have their full names as their authorships [as opposed just 'Mathew']; and we have scientific relics affirming a host of the Hebrew prophets as real historical figures. In contrast, none of the alledged apostles ever met Jesus and none can be proven as real historical figures - not a oner. They are the ones speaking in the name of Jesus, and the entire NT was compiled by Paul - who never met Jesus either and who was a bounty hunter for Rome, who was expelled from Jerusalem for his views - he stormed out in an anxst with a vengence - and the Gospels resulted.So Eurpe accepted the words of those who also wrote the most vile descriptions of Jews and their beliefs, fulfilling away what they also say is sacred stuff. It all boggles the mind - and it became the biggest belief in the world. This applies:THEREFORE YOU SHALL NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MAJORITY.Someone is telling fibs.

You may just be right. I am certain Christianity and Islam will be the best when they resolve all the contradictions between them and cease quesioning magestic laws - the former is incumbent and the latter a loosing battle. The law sector has been cornered by the people of the book, especially:YOU SHALL NOT ADD OR SUBTRACT ANYTHING FROM THIS BOOK OF LAWS.

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Of course you would say this, but the equalist seeking demand has no substance and admits to only a lost case scenario. One stands out as an anomaly here: The Hebrew bible does not mention the other two, predates them by 2000 and 2500 years and is not a relacement theology attacking other belief systems with a usurping agenda. It is reasonable that if two systems attack another, they at least should first resolve their own contradictions in their claims. Consider how this would unfold when reduced to a legal action in a stolen car case: the judge would order both of you to get your acts together.

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Some of this does not even make any sense. You are (mostly) using normal words but they do not actually form a sntence when you string them together. It looks like you are saying Judaism is older then Christianity and Islam so it is exempt from any debate with the other faiths as to its differing doctrines. If that what it i saying that is bullshit. Just because it is older, it does not make it right. Einsteins theories of relativity came after Newton theory of Gravity, which one was better? Older does not mean better or more true, it just means older. You say that if two systems attack another, they at least should first resolve their own contradictions in their claims. I believe that all three should decide whose version of events is the correct one. Or they could mix at all up making a kind of monotheistic stew.

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Its very clear. As in those spot the odd one out exams. Something does not fit in the picture.

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I would doubt that any Muslims or Christians believed their faith wwas subects to Jewish belief systems.

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If you believe that Jews killed your lord [sic] and this has no inescapable shakles to Jews, than we must agree to disagree.

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I know that you beleive that God promised the state of Isreal to the Jews, but a lot of people beileve that this is bullshit.

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A lie by omission is still a lie. The God of Israel anticipated your dementia and also gave you 100% factual, historical, geographical and legal proof for your consideration. You should better explain why a 3-state in the same land is called a 2-state. That is BS math.

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God didnt promise anything to anyone. If you thought that God promised you a large section of California, how do you think you would go. Is it not convenient that God promised some people a land close by. Would it not have been much nicer for God to promise them some land in an area that is a little less volitile? How about makeing them a nice island in the Medditeranian somewhere?

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I know why, because a group of people wanted the bit of land they had found. They basically said 'God bagsied this bit for us'.

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Your views of history does not connect with this planet. The term "RETURN" applies here with Jews and Israel. Deal with it.

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If someone came up to me and said they spoke in the name of Jesus or God, I would tell them I am an athiest and they can go peddle their bronze age bullshit elsewhere. This is what I do anytime a religious person comes to my door with a religious message. I would not ask for proof of their words because I am already aware they dont have any.

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Atheists are still subject to history and the laws of this planet. Maybe you prefer the Pretend Palestinians as your truth - but any reasonable atheist knows this name was applied on the Jewish homeland of Judea - not any Islamic land. The fundamental things apply.

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You can stop making it sound like I accept any of the ranting of religious people, including you. I am an athiest. I do not believe there is a God. I accept none of it.

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Using the term 'belief' says athesm is just another theological premise with a deity they worship called NATURE. You guys are even more fundamentalst than the Taliban today.

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Understand clearly what this means and who is right according to what all the world knows as right:
"ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINS IT SHALL PAY - THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER."

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The world does not know this is right. There are people in the world who have never even heard this. this is what the Jews believe is right. Noone KNOWS if this is right. Putting the whole sentence in capitals does not make it right. It just makes it look like you are shouting. In your case, this is probably what really happened. I would not be surprised if you were actually shrilly shreiking that phrase as you typed it.

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Of course you are 100% incorrect. Try telling a judge a man must be convicted of murder because his kin commited a crime. Breaking news: this is what Jews are being told by Christianity and Islam. All humans, including atheists, intrinsically know the Hebrew law is right here.It seems you are in auto reject mode in a debating forum.

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IamJoseph,
Sometimes I read a post by you and think, that one has to be the biggest load of shit I will ever read. Then you manage to surprise me.

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Zoom out again and you will see the enormous falsehoods directed at the Jews by European Christianity and Islam. I'm not atheistic but also not religious, so my pursuit is simply for the truth, no matter where it points. I found the greatest distruths emanating from Europe and Muslims: there are billions of humans inculcated with the vilest falsehoods today: Moses was a Muslim, the Jewish temple is a zionist myth, Jews are not Jews, Jews are guilty of occupying their motherland, they murder lords and prophets, control banks and the media, drink children's blood, they are apartheiders and genociders, cause AIDS & Tsunamies, etc, etc. Wow - such powers beats even Superman and Spiderman. So let's put the term BS in some perspective here and where it comes from. I find the Hebrew writings the most credible and honest among the three religions - by a margin which is varied in kind and degree.

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Spot the odd one out between the three big monotheistic faiths?

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I already responded to this. Two are attacking Judaism, each claiming ownership while also obsessed in negating the Hebrew bible, its only relevence being if it can be connected to the Gospels - as if! What is more grotesque than accusing someone of killing their lord - and what is the proof of any Jew being killed by Jews - we need two credible witnesses else the charge gets reversed - that's Hebrew and International law? Turn left and you have Muslims charging Jews killed the prohet Jesus - because they cannot accept divine man, but they still have no proof Jews killed or conspired such a thing. To think that Jews in Judea could impress Rome, is like Jews impressing the Nazis in W.W.II. Both charges are obscene and billions of humans cherish these lies as sacred. There are 55 Jewish prophets and they are all cherished and revered - why would they kill a Messiah when death is at the door? Your not an honest atheist.

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They all have similarities and differences. None is more the odd one out than the other two. Are you suggesting that out of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Judaism is the odd one out because it is older?

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You will fail this test.

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my comment - I would doubt that any Muslims or Christians believed their faith was subect to Jewish belief systems.
your reply - If you believe that Jews killed your lord [sic] and this has no inescapable shakles to Jews, than we must agree to disagree.

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Perhaps you should rephrase your original comment, the one about Christians and Muslims faith being subject to a Jewsih belief system. Your reply does not really make sense to me so perhaps I misunderstood your original comment.

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It makes perfect credible sense. Take out Judas and Isaac from the Gospels and quran and what have you got - both fall down? The Hebrew bible is a book of laws - there are no laws in the Gospels or Quran.

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If you thought that God promised you a large section of California, how do you think you would go. Is it not convenient that God promised some people a land close by.

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Whoah there! The difference in Europeans invading California and the Jews in Israel is this: "RETURN". Europeans did not "RETURN" to California. My history lessons say the Jews have never occupied/stolen another peoples' land in all their 4000 year history - despite being exiled throughout the nations. In fact occupying even a cubit of another peoples' land is firbidden in the Hebrew bible - you could not beg of Jews to occupy Califoria! I know there are many honest Christians around who know I am giving you a truthful account. Your 'God gave you this land' is used with wrong pespectives, it appears intentionally: who asked Muslims to dump a Mosque in Jerusalem and in India - they at all times knew these were not their lands?.Christians remain silent of this most unGodly violation of another peoples rights because they erected a church here first [FK the Jews!] - and Islam destroyed the church and dumped a huge mosque there. I don't hear you fussed by it - even that they did this claiming their lord and allah said so? So you point to some things which are clearly false, while omitting all truthful and impacting factors. Why is that - as an atheist you have to at least be honest about your views? Most atheists I found are even more honest than religionists.

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Would it not have been much nicer for God to promise them some land in an area that is a little less volitile? How about makeing them a nice island in the Medditeranian somewhere? I know why, because a group of people wanted the bit of land they had found. They basically said 'God bagsied this bit for us'.
your reply - Your views of history does not connect with this planet. The term "RETURN" applies here with Jews and Israel. Deal with it.

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There we go again. Jews must not have their homeland where they were created and incepted! FYI - Jews predate both Islam and Arabs in Arabia, as do the Copts and the Kurds. The Islamic regimes are new - most never existed 100 years ago, including Saudi Arabia, Iraq, all the Gulf states, Jordan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc, etc - these states have fictional borders based on oil deposits. Jews have documented proof of their land backed by scientficaly verifiable relics and ancient writings from a host of nations. The Middle-east is not Islamic!

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Are you saying God did not promise the Jews Israel?

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You are trying to be provocative to cause a redicule of manifest truths and facts of history. Better you admit whether Jews have historical, legal and factually rights - you don't believe in God, remember?

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"The Lord appeared to Abram and said, 'To your descendants I will give this Land'" (Genesis 12:7). God further said to Abraham: "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession" (Genesis 17:7-8)
and

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Years later the Lord God appeared to Isaac and said, "to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham. And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and will give your descendants all these lands

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and

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"The Lord said to Abram after Lot had separated from him, 'Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever... Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth; for I will give it to you'" (Genesis 13:14-17). "The Lord made a covenant with Abraham, saying, 'To your descendants I have given this Land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates'" (Genesis 15:18-21). "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates" (Exodus 23:31).

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another comment, not scripture from that page -

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Therefore we must conclude that the entire Land of Israel, including Judea and Samaria (the so-called "West Bank"), Gaza, the Golan Heights, and all of Jerusalem, was given by the God of Israel to the people of Israel in perpetuity. We, and we alone, have been given the title to the Land of Israel as a permanent inheritance by the Lord. No human government or coalition of governments has the right or authority to cede portions of the Land of Israel to anyone else.

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(source: Does the Land of Israel belong to the Jewish People ?)

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Certainly sounds like God promised Israel to the Jews to me.

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Is Hebron the birthplace of Judaism? Who established and built Jerusalem? Why did the UN recognise the 'HISTORICAL CONNECTIONS OF THE JEWS WITH PALESTINE'? Was there a sovereign country called Israel 3000 years ago? Was Israel legally established via the UN and all nations voting in the Motion?

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my comment - If someone came up to me and said they spoke in the name of Jesus or God, I would tell them I am an athiest and they can go peddle their bronze age bullshit elsewhere. This is what I do anytime a religious person comes to my door with a religious message. I would not ask for proof of their words because I am already aware they dont have any.

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I doubt it. You would be burnt at the stake. Europeans never had any choice about becoming Christians. Read up on the church rule the first 1000 years of Christianity. Read up what was done to the natives of invaded lands who refused to become Christian or Muslim? You wouldn't stand a chance as an athiest with Islam either.

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your reply - Atheists are still subject to history and the laws of this planet. Maybe you prefer the Pretend Palestinians as your truth - but any reasonable atheist knows this name was applied on the Jewish homeland of Judea - not any Islamic land. The fundamental things apply.

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Laws, history and truth are different things. There are no laws that govern the entire planet either.

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Laws do govern thisnplanet, and not all laws are globally accepted. But the Hebrew laws are so; those who do not accept it are outside the law. I won't play with words.

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I accept the Palestinians version of the Truth as much as I accept the Jews version. That is to say, none at all. This is assuming we are speaking of Truth, with a capital 'T'.

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Muslim Palestinians is a hoax. Please produce one before Arafat emerged? A Muslim Palestinian national anthem, a flag, a coin, an independence day - anything at all? Those who call Muslims as Palestinians are also supporting genocide of the Jews. At least the Nazis were honest about it.

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it is no wonder that you are having trouble with reality. If the only choiced you think you have are the 3 big monotheistic faiths, then of course you are going to be terribly misguided. If you are going to limit your search down to three similar falsehoods, it is not surpsising that you have difficulty finding facts.

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Each of the three faiths have attacked each other for various reasons at various times. They are all bad. Each one believes that their version of God gives them particular rights. Each one of them reject the others opinions on those rights.

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With regard an ancient writing being evidenced via scientifically accepted criteria and volume of works, I know of no other ancient writings as the Hebrew: over 70% has been proven.Stop being in auto defense; at least consider before you post.

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Why should the Jews get their homeland back?

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It is their land, so why not - the legality is not questionable, and the Brits and Polish should know better, considering their crimes against the Jews. The arguement being put is not even that, but that the Jews never owned this land, that Muslims are Palestinians, a 3-state is a 2-state, the Jewish temple is a Zionist myth, etc, etc. Answer those liers if you are interested in discussing this issue. If Europe and nIslam perpetrated grave crimes against others - that is hardly a reason to continue fostering them.

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The Hebrew bible may have some sections that agree with science, pretty much any book does if you look hard enough. If the book mentions men and women, you could say that it agrees with scientific evidence. There are some stroies in that book that probably did happen. There are probably mountains mentioned in it that do exist. That is pretty common in ancient religious texts. All of the important stuff, everything that mentions god, has no scientific evidence. So yes, there may be bits that can be scientifically proven, but all of the stuff that matters, the Creation, God etc all have no evidence whatsoever.

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over 70% proven huh?

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That is bullshit. You know it, I know it. You have thrown that figure out a few times. I have requested sources every time. You can never supply anything to support it.

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You cant provide any supporting data because there is none. You are just making stuff up.

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I am not saying what you are, which amounts to zero, equating it with any and everything. The Hebrew bible marks the first recording of a host of factors and is unique:1. The universe is finite.2. The first listing of life form groups [species]3. The intoruction of the DAY & WEEK.4. The oldest active calendar [5770]5. The first recording of a host of historical items [Mount Ararat, the Tigris, Goshen, Mount Nebo], and ancient nations [Midianites, Moabites, Philistines]; the first kings [Nimrod, Ramseys], the first alphabetical book, the first cencus, the only source for the history of Abraham and Israel.One can go on. The Hebrew bible is the world's most known and accepted document. Yes, over 70% has been scientifically proven, including a 3,500 year Egyptian stelle which mentions Israel, a 3,200 year king David, 3000 year Hebrew writings, etc. This is unseen anywhere else.

Strange display of rightiousness - let's kill you off because others have been killed! Let's get you out from the land you were legally returned to - because! When the Jews were displaced from their land - they were genocided and holocausted, and their return barred. Now they are pursued because they returned. Rocket science what you mean. This guy knows what you mean:Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David HorowitzEdited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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HOW DID YOU GET THIS NUMBER?

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>>>70%<<< This one. How did you get this number?

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I responded to this adequately. Over 70% of the Biblical figures have been identified, and except for a few miracle FX, almost everything which is historically portrayed has been backed by archeology. Your anxst of the 70 figure is not credible.

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Using the Bible itself as a source is unacceptable.

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It is when backed with hard proof!

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You will need to provide the earliest recording of the Hebrew Bible that includes the thing you are discussing. That way, when I show you something prior to that date, you will know that you are incorrect.

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We don't have copies of the Septuagint to its contemporary date [no thanks to Europe!], but we have cross-nation proof this was done in 300 BCE by the Greeks. The dead sea scrolls is dated as upto 250 BCE, but this not mean the bible was created on this date. I would say it was created as per the writings by Moses 3,500 years ago: we have an Egyptian stelle dated 3,500 which affirms parts of the biblical story. Writings was a very expensive and time consuming work in those times, but we know Hebrew writings existed becase we now have proof of King David [The Tel Dan find], and he wrote the psalms 3000 years ago. The original would have been destroyed in the Babylon destruction.

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1. The universe is finite.

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How exactly is this phrased in the Bible (include chapter and verse) and how did you reach the conclusion that the verse means the universe is finite.

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Genesis opening verse; first 3 words: IN THE BEGINNING. The entire verse is open to no other reading than the heavens and the earth [universe] had a beginning. This is my reference.

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2. The first listing of life form groups [species]

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Please provide the chapter and verse that has the word species.

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Its only the most known writings on earth:Ch1/V9-31. The seperation is by terrain and habitat - the most fundamental ones.

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3. The intoruction of the DAY & WEEK.

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These are the first recording of day and week:And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Duet 16/9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing corn shalt thou begin to number seven weeks.

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4. The oldest active calendar [5770]

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Please provide where this calendar appears in the Bible. Chapter and verse. An supply what you think a calendar is.

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It begins after the 6 creation days. The first Saturday occured 5750 years ago, and all events since then are diarised, as seen in any Hebrew newspaper. This is the oldest active calendar and the most accurate one.

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5. The first recording of a host of historical items [Mount Ararat, the Tigris, Goshen, Mount Nebo], and ancient nations [Midianites, Moabites, Philistines]; the first kings [Nimrod, Ramseys], the first alphabetical book, the first cencus, the only source for the history of Abraham and Israel.

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I will break this one down.

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"The first recording of Mount Ararat, the Tigris, Goshen, Mt Nebo"

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Supply chapter and verse. Also, it would not be surprising if a book written about guys wandering around the middle east mentions the names of local landmarks.

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You are abusing this previlige! Pls prove your names second alphabet?

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Provide you definition of census and also provide the chapter and verse that matches your chosen definition.

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Look for it!

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This last one is pretty funny really.

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The Hebrew Bible is "the only source for the history of Abraham and Israel".

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So the book that is the history of abraham and israel is the only source for history of abraham and Israel? Do you realise how stupid that sounds.

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Why!? Its a fact.