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Author Topic:   Hate the sin but love the person...except when voting?
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 9 of 391 (596663)
12-16-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
12-16-2010 9:01 AM


The nature of society is a function of the types of family units that go into making it up so it's not true to say that homosexuals marrying only affects homosexuals.
This is true in the same way that killing a butterfly has an effect on the weather.
The effects on the couple denied the benefits of marriage outweigh any possible deleterious effect to society by many orders of magnitude. The thin and wispy notions of the 'greater good' are completely disproportionate, and nearly irrelevant, to the real and tangible discrimination and restriction of personal freedom.
Tolerance only applies to those things with which we disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by iano, posted 12-16-2010 9:01 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 12-17-2010 5:17 AM Dogmafood has replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 31 of 391 (596741)
12-16-2010 5:58 PM


Alright, get a room you two (unless your in Iran).
The salient point is that withholding marriage rights to gay people is discrimination. Saying that you love them in the next breath is hypocrisy no matter how you might rationalize it.

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 57 of 391 (596843)
12-17-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
12-17-2010 5:17 AM


A shift in the nature of society can occur through monumental movement. Or it can occur in minute, step-wise fashion.
Yes I agree. My point was that the costs of those minute changes to society are huge to the individuals who must pay them. The benefits are difficult to identify while the costs are large and obvious. Disproportion is the essence of injustice.
Whilst agreeing that homosexual marriage in itself wouldn't result in monumental shift, it would be another step in the dissolution of male/female + joined for life idea of marriage.
And if that is considered an important ideal by some then makes sense that they should work towards retaining that structure.
I don't see any evidence that removing the discrimination against gay marriage will have or has had any effect on heterosexual marriage. The 'institution of marriage' is a construct. Marriages themselves are individual things that exist between two people and are, primarily, for their benefit alone. Society is a secondary beneficiary of the 'institution of marriage'. If marriage is beneficial to society then the right should be extended to all. Denying this right only serves to reduce the societal benefits. Rationalizations of this denial fail to account for the fact that the primary benefit of marriage is a cohesive family unit. Many successful families = one successful society.
It is the fact that the marriage exists that provides the benefit. The shape and colour of the marriage are irrelevant.

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 Message 48 by iano, posted 12-17-2010 5:17 AM iano has not replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 136 of 391 (597044)
12-19-2010 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by iano
12-19-2010 6:49 AM


Re: No one can give a reason
3) The fact that some will pay a price for this is weighed up against the benefits. The price is considered worth paying.
Except that no benefits have been demonstrated and I don't think that we have a right to decide if what somebody else has to pay is justified unless that cost is also borne by us.

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 Message 131 by iano, posted 12-19-2010 6:49 AM iano has not replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 150 of 391 (597063)
12-19-2010 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by ICdesign
12-19-2010 10:27 AM


Re: The Golden Rule
That was my tongue in cheek of how far you can take the Golden Rule. "Hey, I would want her to jump my bones so I am going to do un to her"
That is not the Golden Rule. It would, in this case, require you to allow anybody else to jump your bones as they wish.

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 Message 145 by ICdesign, posted 12-19-2010 10:27 AM ICdesign has not replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 291 of 391 (597441)
12-21-2010 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by purpledawn
12-21-2010 5:23 PM


Re: Missing the point
The point of the topic though is whether it is hating the individual.
As per the OP
So, to conclude this post, either ICDESIGN is him/herself commiting a sin by infringing on a gay persons right to living a life with the same freedom awarded to everyone else...
-OR-
ICDESIGN is a hypocrite who feels that only some people who sin should be loved and allowed to live and enjoy the freedom awarded to everyone else.
I would say the topic is really about the hypocrisy of the position. Which has been clearly shown.
While marriage is not an inalienable right being held equal before the law is an inalienable right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by purpledawn, posted 12-21-2010 5:23 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by purpledawn, posted 12-21-2010 6:36 PM Dogmafood has replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 297 of 391 (597470)
12-21-2010 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by purpledawn
12-21-2010 6:36 PM


Re: Missing the point
Exactly, but only if one can show that they are committing a sin, per the Bible.
Is there a list of sins somewhere in the bible or do I have to read the whole thing?
From Wikipedia;
"Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong. In some religions (notably in Christianity), sin can refer not only to physical actions taken, but also to thoughts and internalized motivations and feelings. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, selfish, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful"."
At the very least, voting against gay marriage has been shown to be harmful to gay couples. The desire to withhold this right is entirely selfish. How can it be anything but alienating?
I don't think they generally consider breaking secular laws as a sin.
Indeed and that is the problem.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Scary as hell for sure.
Inalienable is what we have regardless of laws, governments, beliefs, etc.
What, then, would qualify?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by purpledawn, posted 12-21-2010 6:36 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 386 of 391 (597671)
12-23-2010 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by iano
12-23-2010 7:10 AM


Re: "I never engaged in this kind of thing before..."
As purpledawn has pointed out a couple of times, the issue itself contra gay marriage necessarily hateful has filtered through virtually untouched.
I disagree. The OP framed it as 'Hate the sin, love the sinner". It has been shown that being contra gay marriage is neither hating the sin nor loving the sinner.
The related issue of Christian hypocrisy has been shown, imho.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by iano, posted 12-23-2010 7:10 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by ICdesign, posted 12-23-2010 8:58 AM Dogmafood has replied

Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 389 of 391 (597717)
12-23-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by ICdesign
12-23-2010 8:58 AM


Merry Christmas
Cheers and a happy new year.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by ICdesign, posted 12-23-2010 8:58 AM ICdesign has not replied

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