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Author | Topic: If the Bible is metaphorical then perhaps so is the God of the Bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bailey Member (Idle past 4401 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange ...
Hope your day is well. Peg writes: weary writes:
no Genesis clearly says that they ate from the tree THEN they began to realize they were naked Peg, it does not matter whether or not I believe the Newlyweds would have eventually become 'perverted' had they not 'disobeyed'. The fact is, they become 'perverted' before they 'disobey'. The realization of nakedness is indeed after the Lovebird's deception and transgression regarding the Tree Law. I do not suggest otherwise ... What is not clearly revealed in Genesis, or elsewhere, is whether or not the realization of nakedness was actually perverted. We are not in agreement that the realization of nakedness was perverted; that claim does not belong to me. However, if you can see, a certain deviance on Eve's part is readily available before the fruit is partaken of. In Gen. 3:3 Eve blatantly lies. In Gen. 3:6, she perceives that the Tree is to be desired to make one wise. Both of these are perversions and both occur before the Tree Law is transgressed; so, yes ... It appears as though Eve was indeed damaged before she ate the magic fruit.
Peg writes: weary writes:
Exactly. finally a point we agree on. Peg writes:
I believe she may be perverted, but her style of dress is simply an external indicator of her deeper internal blemish; not simply an act of perversion in and of itself. ... do you believe that when a woman wears revealing clothing, such as a prostitute who wears sexually provocative clothes, she is not perverted? Suppose, for a moment, that prostitute is carried to a land where nudity is embraced as pure; will her revealing clothing offer any deeper revelation of a woman's body to those in attendance? In what way might the scantily clad whore's appearance continue to provide temptation to a nudist colony? lol - I like them too ... It's encouraging. One Love
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Peg Member (Idle past 4960 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes: However, if you can see, a certain deviance on Eve's part is readily available before the fruit is partaken of. In Gen. 3:3 Eve blatantly lies In what way did eve lie about the command given earlier? And how was she deviant?
Bailey writes: We are not in agreement that the realization of nakedness was perverted; that claim does not belong to me. but you do agree that the realization of nakedness came after they disobeyed and not before. So why did disobedience cause them to realize they were naked? And, seeing God had made everything perfect, where did the internal blemish come from?
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greentwiga Member (Idle past 3458 days) Posts: 213 From: Santa Joined: |
One doesn't have to study deeply to get the basic message: They sinned and suffered. When you get to specifics, "what is the deal with the nakedness?" you can spout any sort of reasoning. This passage pictures a spiritual battle, so study up on the religions that apply. Read on the Oracle at Delphi (wikipedia is fine) Read Frazier's The Golden Bough. Read the Sumerian Creation stories. They teach on talking serpents, wearing vegetable matter such as fig leaves, ribs, and the tree of life. Once you study them, you see that the issue was which religion. I enjoyed chapter 34 of The Golden Bough, Human Representatives of Attis. Frazier speculates that the man dressed in vegetation as Attis was sacrificed. By the way, the Hebrew word for naked is also translated rudely dressed. Whether you are naked or dressed in a thong bikini when you go to meet the pope, you are considered improperly dressed. Whether they were naked or rudely dressed is not the issue. It is that they were not dressed properly and what was the proper dress is really the issue. Notice God rejected the fig clothes and dressed them in animal skins. Study and it will make much more sense.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4401 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thanks for the exchange Peg.
Hope things are well ... Peg writes: weary writes:
In what way did eve lie about the command given earlier? However, if you can see, a certain deviance on Eve's part is readily available before the fruit is partaken of. In Gen. 3:3 Eve blatantly lies. The young lady is dishonest only one time throughout the narrative. It is in plain sight.
And how was she deviant? Deviant isn't a good word; I would like to retract that if I may. A more accurate description may suggest imperfect or unfinished. Perhaps a bit dishonest and unsure of the truth as well.
Peg writes: weary writes:
but you do agree that the realization of nakedness came after they disobeyed and not before. We are not in agreement that the realization of nakedness was perverted; that claim does not belong to me. Absolutely.
So why did disobedience cause them to realize they were naked? Disobedience doesn't cause the realization of nakedness ... Fruit does. Within the narrative, disobedience causes the realization of deception.
And, seeing God had made everything perfect, where did the internal blemish come from? Where does the text indicate anything about perfection? One Love
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4401 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thanks for the exchange greentwiga.
Hope all is well. One doesn't have to study deeply to get the basic message: They sinned and suffered. That is an interesting message; unfortunately, as far as I can tell, not one easily found in an honest plain reading of the text. The story in my bible seems to indicate the couple was deceived into becoming more like a God. Much more than that may be gleamed if we lend the authors any credit. I am fairly imaginative, consider that a warning, but I will attempt to clarify the message I beleive the author was attempting to convey. Of course, by no means do I suggest that the following drivel is the only correct interpretation. It is simply one. If I was to take an honest gander, I'd bet the authors of the narrative were describing, in poetic, proverbial, and metaphorical form, the creation of the human species that is fully endowed with the mental faculty of reason (the knowledge of good and bad), as well as the mental faculty of creative intellect (the imagination). These two mental faculties enable humans to manipulate their God-given natural environment and in doing so human society becomes agrarian and urbanized - humans till the ground from which they were taken (Gen. 3:23), and the first 'tent-village' becomes the mother of all inhabitants (Gen. 3:20). These advancements, however, come with a price ... 1) Humans begin judging the Father and the Father's creation, thus causing them to believe they are separate from Him. 2) Humans begin judging one another. As a consequence of implementing the 'Knowledge of Good and Evil', the human species must begin exploring outside the Garden In Eden, at the risk of leaving behind almost all hope of reaching the 'Tree of the Life'; which the species has been told 'guards' the way back to it's Father's garden. Thus, mortal human existence begins spreading across the earth and eventually subdues it. That's about all I got so far without gettin' too detailed ... The way back into the Garden In Eden is described within the Gospel of the Kingdom presented by Yeshua the Anointed One and is also described by the author in the final verse of the Garden text. The 'cherubim' and the 'flame of the sword' that turns every way both 'keep' as well as 'preserve' the way to the 'Tree of the Life'.
When you get to specifics, "what is the deal with the nakedness?" you can spout any sort of reasoning. Your probably right. Nevertheless, spouting any sort of reasoning is as easily accomplished without questioning nakedness ...
This passage pictures a spiritual battle, so study up on the religions that apply. Read on the Oracle at Delphi (wikipedia is fine) Read Frazier's The Golden Bough. Read the Sumerian Creation stories. They teach on talking serpents, wearing vegetable matter such as fig leaves, ribs, and the tree of life. Once you study them, you see that the issue was which religion. I enjoyed chapter 34 of The Golden Bough, Human Representatives of Attis. Frazier speculates that the man dressed in vegetation as Attis was sacrificed. By the way, the Hebrew word for naked is also translated rudely dressed. Whether you are naked or dressed in a thong bikini when you go to meet the pope, you are considered improperly dressed. Whether they were naked or rudely dressed is not the issue. It is that they were not dressed properly and what was the proper dress is really the issue. Notice God rejected the fig clothes and dressed them in animal skins. Study and it will make much more sense. ... as you can see. One Love Edited by Bailey, : sp. I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe ... Tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker. Why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself? Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Pure and simple, a Christian cult is anyone who does not honor Jesus as Lord (Acts 2:36) who now sits at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 2:33). I am not surprised that those who do not honor Jesus as Lord would rather shuffle the Scriptures around while sailing on the Titanic, rather than entering into the eternal life relationship with Him (John 7:38-39).
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1972 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
OH. Now everyone that disagrees with you is in league with Satan? That is an effective debating tool. Aren't you showing a rather sleazy debating tactic of your own by over generalizing what I wrote? You can't quote me on making such a broad statement, so why misrepresent what I said? My comment was limited to the laboring, as I perceive the poster was doing, in concealing (obscuring) the presence of Satan, where it should be obvious that that is who is meant. For the record, not everyone who disagrees with me is doing the bidding of Satan. Some of them may even be right to disagree with me. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
I just have to tell you bluntly what's going on. You are doing the service of Satan, trying to hide Satan and rescue Satan from being exposed. To even make such a comment seems ludicrous and beyond the pale. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1972 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
To even make such a comment seems ludicrous and beyond the pale. Maybe it was not decorous to a sterile intellectual game - ie. a supposedly friendly game of "Bible Ball". This may come as a shock to you. But the Bible does not exist simply as an intellectual curiosity. This book was not developed over 1600 years simply to tickle some people's intellectual curiosity There is an actual spiritual warfare going on. What is needed is to see the enemy where he is exposed. Labors that I have seen to conceal and obscure him remind me of the propoganda footage of Hitler during the Holocaust. The vidoes showed such a docile kindly gentleman strolling along with his girlfriend. How could he possibly be of danger to anyone? A similar propoganda is going on with those - "Oh, that has nothing to do with any enemy of God. Oh that is not about Satan at all." I seek balance not extremes. He's certainly not the only subject of the whole Bible. But neither is it helpful to labor to hide his activity where it is plainly exposed. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
In my eyes it is all just radical christianist propaganda. By telling someone that are doing the work of satan, is to tell them you think they are immoral and evil. Hardly behaviour for a discussion board.
Maybe it was not decorous to a sterile intellectual game - ie. a supposedly friendly game of "Bible Ball". This may come as a shock to you. But the Bible does not exist simply as an intellectual curiosity. This book was not developed over 1600 years simply to tickle some people's intellectual curiosity Your beliefs. For a large group of us it is nothing more than an intellectual curiosity. There are for more appropriate places on the web to spout christianist preaching. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1972 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Your beliefs. For a large group of us it is nothing more than an intellectual curiosity. I know. Wide is the gate and broad is the way.
There are for more appropriate places on the web to spout christianist preaching. Where? Where?
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4401 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thanks for the exchange ...
Hope things are well. Brutha jay writes: Theodorable writes:
I know. Wide is the gate and broad is the way. Your beliefs. For a large group of us it is nothing more than an intellectual curiosity. It seems as Theo is stating that, although he does not provide the same reverence to these ancient texts as some do, he is also not under the assumption that he has an understanding of them either. I could be wrong. That said, you do understand that the 'narrow gate' is the one that accepts the Anointed One as leader, and follows HIS commands, while rejecting the worship of His blood libel, right?
Brutha jay writes: Theo writes:
Where? Where? There are for more appropriate places on the web to spout christianist preaching. [clicks heels] ... there's no place like home ... ... there's no place like home ... ... there's no place like home ... lol - seriously brutha jay, choose a portion of the bible that we can discuss constructively, and I'll play nice. I will make an honest attempt to not be antagonistic, that we may perhaps share some simple insights. Maybe do it in that other thread we were in though (Bible Study:cover 2 cover, etc.), unless you wanna just discuss strictly metaphorical stuff in this one. You are obviously not obligated, but it may prove enlightening. One Love
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4401 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thanks for the exchange John 10:10.
Hope things are well with you ... John 10:10 responds to himself and writes: John 10:10 writes:
I am not surprised that those who do not honor Jesus as Lord would rather shuffle the Scriptures around while sailing on the Titanic, rather than entering into the eternal life relationship with Him (John 7:38-39). Pure and simple, a Christian cult is anyone who does not honor Jesus as Lord (Acts 2:36) who now sits at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 2:33). Pure and simple, huh. Allow me an attempt to make it more simple and pure for you John 10:10 ... A 'Christian' cult is anyone who relies on the ritualistic magic of a blood libel for the expressed purpose of attaining continuous living. (Reality, EvCost 193) You are a cult member no better than a Yehovah's Witness. Open your eyes; take in a wider perspective ... One Love Edited by Bailey, : sp. Edited by Bailey, : sp. Edited by Bailey, : sp.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1972 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Socialogically it is not that easy to define what a "cult" is. Maybe a "cult" is defined as a group of people you are afraid of.
That is in the realm of socialogy, even socialogy of relious movements. I am not sure what you mean about worshipping the blood of Christ. At the Lord's Table He told His disciples to do something in rememberance of Him. I have to think about it. Does that mean they disciples are "worshipping" the blood? Not sure. Transubstantiation I regard as superstitious. Christians I meet with believe in the redemptive work of Christ and praise and thank God for it. A shorthand way of refering to that redemptive work is speaking of "the precious blood", certainly a phrase that the Apostle Peter used. Whether a typical prayer like "Lord we thankyou for your precious blood shed for our redemption" constitutes worshipping the blood, I am not certain it is. It certainly is worshipping Jesus. I the present time I lean a little more on the side of it being "remembering" what Jesus did for us on the cross. I often "apply" the blood of Jesus to my conscience in prayer. This is mandatory, I think, for a healthy spiritual life. Our concience is often offended or under condemnation or accusation of the enemy. Sometimes there is cause. Sometime there is little cause. To have peace within I pray about the blood of Christ. For the Scripture said "How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:14) The mention of the blood really is a shorthand for remembering His redemptive death. And it does put the troubled conscience in the sweetest peace. I am not sure if that is worshipping the blood. I am inclined to say it is worshipping Jesus Christ and recalling all that He is and has done, and even is doing. I can think of no passage telling us to worship the blood of Christ. I can think of passages telling us to worship Him. And we do pass the cup of wine or grape juice at His table in rememberance that He redeemed us with the shedding of His blood. I guess what I am saying that at present I see that the Christian's object of adoration and worship is the resurrected and living Christ. The mentioning and praying about His blood is a kind of shorthand referance to His redemptive death for our sins. The power of recalling in faith the blood of Christ deals with three areas of need: 1.) Real guilt before God (genuine conviction from the Holy Spirit)2.) Self condemnation (with or without real basis in fact) 3.) Accusation from the Devil (with or without basis in fact) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4401 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange brutha jay.
Hope things are well with you today ... I thought we may utilize this as we go.
There's a handy dandy 'blood' drive for quick reference and the first few from Matisyahu below ...
quote: I am going to make an attempt to keep my posts shorter than I often do. We'll see how it goes ... but remember, I may not be able to engage your entire posts if they are super long. It seems that Matisyahu 23:35 may speak against the worship of righteous prophet blood. What do you think?
I am not sure what you mean about worshipping the blood of Christ. Blood does not seem to have had a place in the ministry of the Anointed One. I find few references in his discourse to the crowds concerning such doctrine. Yet, many appear to suggest that 'the mystical of the power' is 'in the blood', or something like that that. Which verses do you feel best support a blood libel of the Anointed One?
At the Lord's Table He told His disciples to do something in rememberance of Him. What do you think this means? Perhaps the key to understanding may be performing this in remembrance of Him, rather than, in hopes of our own. If people attempt to tie the resurrection to this, it may easily become more about them and ghost heaven, rather than remembering humanity, the world and the life of Yeshua HaMashiach. You know what I mean jean? I have imagined the bread/life as Yeshua's birth and the wine/blood as his murder, and so, when we take them in, there is the sense we are accepting, as the Father's children, Yeshua HaMashiach's obedient and powerful life and murder as our own fate, as our Mashiach did. Perhaps Matisyahu 23:30 speaks to this ...
Transubstantiation I regard as superstitious. Interesting. Please, expound ...
I have to think about it. Does that mean they disciples are "worshipping" the blood? I don't know. Although, I did confide in you how I am able to accomodate the symbolism of the innocent blood shedding, it, nevertheless, represents murder to me. Like the murder of an innocent slave. Thankfully, there is no place within me to consider innocent slave murder worship. It has been hedged out apparently. An aside ... Do you remember what brother Yacov admonishes us about religion in the book entitled after him? I think the later added ghost and blood libel mythology may have began the defiling process. There are, at least, two traditions clearly depicted in Acts, one revolving around a 'Christ' (Romans, etc.), and at least one other revolving around 'HaMashiach' (Hebrews, etc.). Maybe we can examine and discuss their distinctions if it seems good. I'll be honest. I don't think ol' uncle Paul was being intentionally malicious. However, I have wondered if certain verses, like Hebrews 12:15 for example, may have warned of his relentless tendencies. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure He thought he was helping things. One Love Edited by Bailey, : sp. Edited by Bailey, : sp.
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