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Author Topic:   If the Bible is metaphorical then perhaps so is the God of the Bible
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 196 of 243 (512452)
06-18-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Bailey
06-17-2009 7:18 PM


Re: Blood Drive
It seems that Matisyahu 23:35 may speak against the worship of righteous prophet blood. What do you think?
I think Matthew 23:35 merely about Jesus warning the opposing religionists. They persecuted all the Old Testament prophets from Abel to Zachariah the son of Barachiah.
I do not what you mean by "blood libel". You'll have to explain what you mean by that phrase.
Blood does not seem to have had a place in the ministry of the Anointed One.
We have to regard His death on the cross as part of His ministry. And without the shedding of His blood there is no forgiveness of sins. And He made this point emphatic when He instituted the table meeting and said:
"And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you. For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt.26:27,28)
In Luke He used the phrase "new covenant". So the New Testament ministry has an important emphasis on Christ shedding His blood for the forgiveness of sinners. If He had not done so there would be no forgiveness. And if we had to answer to God for one sin we would be undone. I don't think we would ever make it to be His.
The blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from every sin.
I find few references in his discourse to the crowds concerning such doctrine. Yet, many appear to suggest that 'the mystical of the power' is 'in the blood', or something like that that. Which verses do you feel best support a blood libel of the Anointed One?
In this reply I have not yet heard what you mean by "blood libel".
Concerning the effectiveness of all that Christ is and has done - it is in the Holy Spirit. Any "power of the blood" is effetive to sinners because they receive the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is Christ in another form. He is Christ in His pneumatic form:
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
Physical objects do not convey any spiritual life to people. All the blessing is conveyed to us through the Holy Spirit being dispensed into our human spirit.
At the Lord's Table He told His disciples to do something in rememberance of Him.
What do you think this means? Perhaps the key to understanding may be performing this in remembrance of Him, rather than, in hopes of our own.
This is too deep of a question for me to solve in one post. However, I think to remember Him means to recall that stage in God's history when He was incarnated and lived as a flesh and blood man with us on the earth. "The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ...".
Of course this Man Jesus Christ is today exalted to the throne of God and still a man. But He is now a man in glory with a golirified resurrection body, one which we also as believers in Christ will one day have.
But to remember Him I think has to do with never forgetting that period of time in which God was incarnated in the Son and born, lived, died and resurrected being among us. The disciples are to remember this until He comes again in glory with His glorified resurrected divine body.
If people attempt to tie the resurrection to this, it may easily become more about them and ghost heaven, rather than remembering humanity, the world and the life of Yeshua HaMashiach. You know what I mean jean?
I'm not sure if I follow you here.
I have imagined the bread/life as Yeshua's birth and the wine/blood as his murder, and so, when we take them in, there is the sense we are accepting, as the Father's children, Yeshua HaMashiach's obedient and powerful life and murder as our own fate, as our Mashiach did. Perhaps Matisyahu 23:30 speaks to this ...
One could be impressed that way. The Holy Spirit may impress any number of things upon our hearts as we worship the Lord Jesus.
The significance of what He is and what He has done will take eternity to appreciate.
Transubstantiation I regard as superstitious.
Interesting. Please, expound ...
Catholicism teaches that the wafer when put in the mouth actually becomes the body of Jesus. And they teach that the wine taken into the mouth actually becomes the blood of Jesus.
I regard this as not true and superstitious. Catholicism took the New Testament and mixed with it many superstitious things. It is a tricky matter in this mixture. Deep down in Catholic doctrines you will usually find the genuine teaching. They are the oldest Christianity in that institutionalized sense. But mixed in with these truths are many pre-Christian and (for lack of a better word) pagan superstitious ideas.
You should remember Christ's parable about the woman who took leaven and mixed it in with three measures of fine flour until the whole thing became leaven. This was a prophecy of how the Christian gospel would be "leavened" with heretical and superstitious ideas until the entire matter became corrupted. I definitely take Matt. 13:33-35 as a negative prediction concerning "the kingdom of the heavens".
I don't know. Although, I did confide in you how I am able to accomodate the symbolism of the innocent blood shedding, it, nevertheless, represents murder to me. ... murder of an innocent slave. Thankfully, there is no place within me to consider innocent slave murder worship. It has been hedged out apparently.
Your references to blood was long and extensive. But I think what would be helpful to you and I would be to consider only the passages about the blood of Jesus. That is, in general, what things are spoken by the writers of the New Testament in reference to the blood of Jesus specifically.
I think if we prayerfully consider all those references we get a picture of what God wants to impress us with. The book of Hebrews comes to mind as a good place to look.
Perhaps you could not avoid indirect references, for example "the Lamb of God". I think most of the passages would stress the redemptive aspect of the blood of Jesus. Justice of God fell upon Him for our sake. We were judged in Him in His atoning death on man's behalf.
This all happened by the predetermination of God. Yes, He was murdered. But He offered Himself obediently in an absolute way to the Father.
An aside ...
Do you remember what brother Yacov admonishes us about religion in the book entitled after him? I think the later added ghost and blood libel mythology may have began the defiling process. There are, at least, two traditions clearly depicted in Acts, one revolving around a 'Christ' (Romans, etc.), and at least one other revolving around 'HaMashiach' (Hebrews, etc.). Maybe we can examine and discuss their distinctions if it seems good.
You are accustomed to refering to names as known I think in Hebrew. So I am not sure who you mean by Yacov. Is that James ?
However, I regard the whole New Testament as God's revelation. I think different writers may have displayed different levels of wisdom. They balance each other. I would not fault any New Testament writer as taking us disciples of Jesus completely in a wrong direction.
I might say that James was probably the writer the most with one foot still in the old testament. I would regard Paul's 13 books to be the higher or highest revelation level in the NT.
I have to stop here for now. See you latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Bailey, posted 06-17-2009 7:18 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Bailey, posted 06-18-2009 3:25 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 200 by Bailey, posted 06-18-2009 5:11 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 201 by Bailey, posted 06-18-2009 5:39 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 202 by Bailey, posted 06-20-2009 1:55 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 197 of 243 (512461)
06-18-2009 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Theodoric
06-15-2009 12:33 PM


Re: Apostles of Christ
There are for more appropriate places on the web to spout christianist preaching.
And there are more appropriate places on the web to spout evolutionist/agnostic-atheist-humanist preaching.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Theodoric, posted 06-15-2009 12:33 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Bailey, posted 06-18-2009 9:42 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 198 of 243 (512466)
06-18-2009 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by jaywill
06-18-2009 8:51 AM


Ba-gawk !!
lol - I truly adore these forums ...
I really do.
brutha jay writes:
Theo writes:
There are for more appropriate places on the web to spout christianist preaching.
And there are more appropriate places on the web to spout evolutionist/agnostic-atheist-humanist preaching.
Ahem ...
I shall have to politely disagree with you both, and to this, if I may, I would add that there seems to be, perhaps, no better a place to be found in all o' the entirety of the interwebz wherein these things may be discussed. You see, the thing is, to enjoy your time here is to enjoy your time while in the middle of the road, constantly dodging traffic all the while, and so, it seems that, there becomes a very lil' outside chance that one may remain unawares of their surroundings for too long, unless - of course - one opts for the simple game o' chick'n.
Ba-gawk!
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2009 8:51 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 199 of 243 (512507)
06-18-2009 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jaywill
06-18-2009 7:51 AM


assessing the values and prophets associated w/ farm animal blood.
Thank you for the exchange brutha jay ...
Hope all is well with you and yours.
brutha jay writes:
weary writes:
It seems that Matisyahu 23:35 may speak against the worship of righteous prophet blood. What do you think?
quote:
Mat 23:35

so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.


I think Matthew 23:35 merely about Jesus warning the opposing religionists.
Merely? I cannot but help seemingly notice a steadfast tendency on behalf of many traditions, such as those carried on by Peg, purpledawn, John 10:10 and yourself as only a few identifiable examples, wherein the words of the Prophets are simply and blatantly suppressed. A prime example may be your collective and continual insistences that burnt offerings and blood sacrafices were established by the Father on Mt.Horeb. Apparently, as this wine is sipped, one becomes continually drunk.
Yirmiyahu declares, as far as being from the Father, such commands were not.
Instead, they were dreamt up by some poli-religious pranksters, for obvious reasons that I'm sure none would care to discuss. You see, the thing is, those blood thirsty pranksters got so thirsty that they became clever enough to know that one cannot prove whether sins are indeed forgiven without the shedding of innocent blood, and so, for those yet without teshuva & enumah towards Abba Father, there is the sense that psychological barriers become erected, soon favoring the limits of the Father's capacity, as the Innocent Blood of the World is steadily siphened out of Life.
Within the passage from Matisyahu above, Yeshua is depicted as reprimanding, and perhaps replacing, the ill equiped priests who had come to be an infectious disease within Yuhdaism through their lusts for the Fat o' the Land™ and continual Shedding of Innocent Blood™; both trademarks of the corrupted Levitical priesthood, upon whose shoulders, according to the Law and the Prophets, the entire hocus pocus blood magic rituals lay.
If it is not yet obvious that Yeshua's ministry, which involved water purification methods, was in favor of suppressing blood atonement concepts, which the RCC/Levitical priesthood attempted to resurrect in the name of 'the christ' to appease an unending lust for ritualistic blood magic and what not, perhaps we may dedicate a thread to such a topic and hear what the Prophets have to say, while considering reality, the RCC texts and CE historical data as well.
It seems, in the end, that many within Yuhdaism still think that killing all those animals served a purpose besides destruction, which, in turn, apparently causes 'christians' to suppose innocent murder can accomplish continuous life. It seems like forms of death anxiety are, perhaps, accusing the Prophets of lying. As far as I can tell, you are all mostly dishonest to yourselves in these regards. What is to be gained by believing our biblical traditions instead of reality, as opposed to our Bible and Reality?
They persecuted all the Old Testament prophets from Abel to Zachariah the son of Barachiah.
That is correct. Yirmiyahu and Yeshua are persecuted everytime someone assigns a future value to the spilling of innocent blood, as they both delivered traditions that disposed of such nonsense. Unforunately, people would rather take their risks that the corporation of religion understands less about profits than the Prophets understand about the Father. When we take our place before the Mercy Seat, perhaps we will have a chance to explain our reasoning for considering hocus pocus blood magic rituals and biblical inerrancy, in place of pure grace and scribal forgeries. One can surely hope.
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe ...
Tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
Why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2009 7:51 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 200 of 243 (512515)
06-18-2009 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jaywill
06-18-2009 7:51 AM


regarding blood libel & the ghost jesus
Thank you for the exchange brutha jay ...
Hope all is well with you and yours.
I do not what you mean by "blood libel". You'll have to explain what you mean by that phrase.
A blood libel is an allegation, accusation, or even confirmation, at times true, others sensationalized and still others fancified; finally, some are even false. As such, this charge contends that a person or group has engaged in a human sacrifice, often of an innocent child, in which claim to the blood of the victim has been laid and further employed in various rituals. The long and short of it, perhaps ... usurper/serpent/HaSaTaN/religion? Idk?? What say ye?
Wikimeister writes:
Some of the best documented cases of blood libel focus upon accusations against Jews, but many other groups have been accused throughout history, including Christians, Cathars, Carthaginians, Knights Templar, witches, Wiccans, Christian heretics, Romani people, Mormons, neopagans, Native Americans, Africans, atheists and communists.
Imagine the mountains we may all move together as we place as much of the Prophets faith in water, which the Father created, in the beginning, as the foundation of this world, as we are blindly encouraged, by corrupted traditions, to place in blood, which was not created in the beginning.
Either way, we have the joy of thanking the Father for HaMashiach's teshuva & enumah and our portion in it.
Faith the size of mustard seeds kids ...
brutha jay writes:
weary writes:
Blood does not seem to have had a place in the ministry of the Anointed One.
We have to regard His death on the cross as part of His ministry.
Perhaps one may regard this event as the end of HaMashiach's earthly ministry and the beginning of other earthly variant traditions.
Yet, I would say that you are right to suppose it is more than simply that ... the venomous murder was the price set to live freely and honestly.
And without the shedding of His blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Perhaps you are onto something, yet ...
First, I must say, have you not heard? O' yea babes, of lil' faith, be thankful in all things ... the wages of sin are death. Before leavin' the field & headin' to their Father's house, are the laborers not paid their due wage? Or should we suppose it the other way around? Nevertheless, we may discern the inner working of this hocus pocus magic blood ritual yet, providing we continue searching our hearts and our bibles.
In one short paragraph, can you present a description of how you may relate this passage, if the need arose, to a fello who is not familiar with blood revenge.
And He made this point emphatic when He instituted the table meeting and said:
quote:
... Drink of it, all of you. For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. (Matt.26:27,28)
Again, drinking the symbolic wine/blood/murder appears to have signified a spiritual decision that each disciple who was willing to choose the potentiality of being murdered, a risk associated with undoing the blood letting of corrupt tradition, would make; that is, if they were to continue the Gospel that HaMashiach was being murdered for blessin' everybody with. Variant traditions lurked 'roun almost every corner waiting to pounce on that message apparently.
However, it does not appear to have indicated a magic blood ritual responsible for supplying all sippers a remote chance, much less a promise, of 'eternal life in ghost heaven'. At least, that is not what I am seeing. Those, disciples aside for a moment, who accepted the final end of the previous corrupted priestly traditions would have likely found solace in Mashiach's bloodless Gospel as they moved on from the musty center of a leavened reality to pure grace.
Those, my friend, who find Yeshua HaMashiach's Life, in a brighter light than his ghost birth, visits and ascension, may find no less.
One Love

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2009 7:51 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 201 of 243 (512520)
06-18-2009 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jaywill
06-18-2009 7:51 AM


regarding the purposes of bloodletting HaMashiach
Thank you for the exchange brutha jay.
Hope all is well in your camp ...
In Luke He used the phrase "new covenant".
Perhaps a separate thread, hashing out exactly why a new Covenant was being established and further identifying their distinctions, is in order.
So the New Testament ministry ...
There is the ministry of HaMashiach and then there is variant traditions after His murder. When the latter is mixed with the former, the Gospel of the Kingdom delivered by Yeshua HaMashiach becomes a bloody mess.
... has an important emphasis on Christ shedding His blood for the forgiveness of sinners.
It certainly does! We know 'shedding his blood' equates to murder. 'Forgiveness of sins' seemingly equates to a tactic of evading wages, considering, as we are told, 'the wages of sin is death'. So, Yeshua had to be murdered in order that others may evade those who paid them their wages. Who was in charge of the followers of Yuhdaism's wages in first century? Corrupted traditions.
Yeshua was murdered to make straight the paths of corrupted traditions. If he chose not to submit to Abba Father, the traditions of innocent bloodletting would have most certainly been continued in Yuhdaism. However, due to submission, they were discontinued and within a very short time at that.
It appears, however, that they were indeed resurrected by poli-religious wannabe-levite pranksters on the prowl for the Fat o' the Land™ and continual Shedding of Innocent Blood™ towards the latter quadrant of the fourth century, and so, the deadly corrupted traditions were seemingly dusted off, repacked and finally injected into the remnant of variant messianic traditions which had become corralled into one another within 'the christ' of Rome.
It just seems like, where HaMashiach of the Father gives us real Life, 'the christ' of Rome gives us ghost heaven and I am not much concerned with ghost heaven as of late - lol. One should not have too much on their plate and I'm still tryin' to work out the Law and the Prophets. Maybe when they are fulfilled, then I'll have a bit of time to look into that supposed ghost heaven stuff a little more. We'll see.
If He had not done so there would be no forgiveness.
Within the freely flown term 'forgiveness', one may identify with a sense of pure beginnings and new traditions, and in that sense, I highly agree.
And if we had to answer to God for one sin we would be undone. I don't think we would ever make it to be His.
You think the Father would undo you for one sin?
I can't even believe you there for one second.
The blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from every sin.
lol - what a wonderfully ambiguous saying. Yet, more specifically ...
A lil' teshuva & enumah, gifted by HaMashiach of the Father, and a baptism in the river (of life), performed in the fashion of HaMashiach and the Prophets, has thankfully cleansed my sins the same way it did theirs; there seems to be little reason to expect it cannot cleanse anyone else's, considering the Father is not a respecter of persons and all.
btw, you don't honestly consider that the Father may color the Judgement for anybody, do you?
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : sp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2009 7:51 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 202 of 243 (512747)
06-20-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jaywill
06-18-2009 7:51 AM


first fruits
Thanks for the exchange brutha jay.
Hope things are well with you ...
Brutha jay writes:
weary writes:
I have imagined the bread/life as Yeshua's birth and the wine/blood as his murder, and so, when we take them in, there is the sense we are accepting, as the Father's children, Yeshua HaMashiach's obedient and powerful life and murder as our own fate, as our Mashiach did. Perhaps Matisyahu 23:30 speaks to this ...
One could be impressed that way. The Holy Spirit may impress any number of things upon our hearts as we worship the Lord Jesus.
You know that's right. btw, this fyi may help identify the platform on which I rest. HaMashiach, our leader, seems to defer His veneration. Yet, I give to the Father what is His. In this Way, Yeshua is my friend and brother. I worship the Father though. Only. 1
The significance of what He is and what He has done will take eternity to appreciate.
Sure enough seems that way - lol
brutha jay writes:
weary writes:
brutha jay writes:
At the Lord's Table He told His disciples to do something in rememberance of Him.
What do you think this means? Perhaps the key to understanding may be performing this in remembrance of Him, rather than, in hopes of our own.
This is too deep of a question for me to solve in one post. However, I think to remember Him means to recall that stage in God's history when He was incarnated and lived as a flesh and blood man with us on the earth. "The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ...".
Also, perhaps, to remember Him in the context of a first century landscape is to remember the struggle against incorporated dogma. Although, I must agree with you, Yeshua HaMashiach's triumphant entrance into humanity, in the form of uncorrupted and unspeckled ToRaH, is quite a thing to remember. That may, perhaps, be an inclusion to many, many years worth of loyal practitioners diligently Speaking the Word of Truth found within, and out, the Law and the Prophets. lol - almost as if they spoke that ToRaH ben HaMashiach right into existence, them lil' rascals did ...
Of course this Man Jesus Christ is today exalted to the throne of God and still a man.
To the right of the throne, but yea ... also, one may ultimately consider Yeshua HaMashiach the first example of the next blessed species of sapien.
That, kinda, seems to be the deal, no? It may follow that each species of mankind has become more refined than its predecessor. What say ye?
But He is now a man in glory with a golirified resurrection body, one which we also as believers in Christ will one day have.
Considering exclusivity truly has no bearing, does the popular term 'believers in Christ' seem a bit presumptuous?
After all, in that Triumphant Day, the appearance is that many of those who labored under false pretense must, before mercy, endure disappointment.
Ahhh ... nevertheless. The First Fruits of a New Creation. I must admit, I'm a lil' taken back by so many who have yet to discern the biblical evolution of mankind, considering that these texts begin to express in exactly what way mankind will evolve into another form of being. It just seems as though, once one begins to identify and understand the various properties assigned and associated within evolution, it may become difficult to consider that a similar mechanism is not continuously at work where our our matter meets The Mind.
Perhaps, those who tickle each other's ears and repeat falsifications about the Father's tinkering habits (creationists, etc.), and in the 'name o' god' at that, simply encourage others, who may be still unawares of the Father's love for them yet, to distrust even their Father, and so, HaMashiach too. There is a sense that once the children of the Father finally take initiative in curbing their fantasies and, as difficult as it seems at times, begin being honest, this Family's gonna have an awesome reunion. Yet, thankfully, we are blessed enough to be here, on earth, right now!
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jaywill, posted 06-18-2009 7:51 AM jaywill has not replied

  
greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3428 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 203 of 243 (513260)
06-27-2009 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
05-22-2009 3:00 PM


There are certain rules that Christians are supposed to follow. When we read that Jesus is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, we have to compare it to other scriptures. Is there any evidence that Jesus was a sheep? No. Is there any scriptures that talk about lambs taking away sin? Yes. This is a metaphor. We use this logic when we look at other verses like the trees clapping their hands. Do trees have hands? No. Well, this looks like a metaphor. I grant you that there are some verses that are hard to tell. Many verses in Revelation are debated. Generally, verses should be understood that the writer meant to read them literally.
There is another point that even more focuses on what the original writer meant. Even today, many scientists who absolutely believe that the earth orbits the sun will say sunrise was at 6:24 am. Many verses were written according to the convention of the culture. Some even say the sun rises, just as we do. One version of the conventions of the culture is the writer's viewpoint (the sun looks like it rises) When looking at the conventions of the culture, reading other sources can help. There is several proposals as to the meaning of the eye of a needle. One group maintains that there was a gate into Jerusalem that a camel couldn't get through and it was called the needle or the eye of the needle. Others say it was a literal statement on how a camel can't fit through a real needle's eye. By any of these rules, the writers meant the resurrection of Jesus to be understood as a literal statement.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 204 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2009 6:57 AM greentwiga has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 204 of 243 (513265)
06-27-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by greentwiga
06-27-2009 2:15 AM


Lamb and Sin
quote:
Is there any scriptures that talk about lambs taking away sin? Yes.
Scripture please! I don't find any verses that talk about lambs taking away sin.
quote:
Generally, verses should be understood that the writer meant to read them literally.
Why?
quote:
By any of these rules, the writers meant the resurrection of Jesus to be understood as a literal statement.
Writers and verses please.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by greentwiga, posted 06-27-2009 2:15 AM greentwiga has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Peg, posted 06-27-2009 8:21 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 205 of 243 (513267)
06-27-2009 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by purpledawn
06-27-2009 6:57 AM


Re: Lamb and Sin
Hi Purpledawn,
i can provide a few scriptures re 'lambs and sin'
The sacrificial lamb began in Egypt with the requirement that the blood of the lamb to be painted on the doorposts in order to survive Gods judgement on Egypt.
quote:
12:2"This month will be the start of the months for YOU. It will be the first of the months of the year for YOU. 3Speak to the entire assembly of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth day of this month they are to take for themselves each one a sheep for the ancestral house, a sheep to a house...7And they must take some of the blood and splash it upon the two doorposts...12And I must pass through the land of Egypt on this night and strike every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from man to beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I shall execute judgments. I am Jehovah. 13And the blood must serve as YOUR sign upon the houses where YOU are; and I must see the blood and pass over YOU, and the plague will not come on YOU as a ruination when I strike at the land of Egypt.
the Messiah was prophesied to be a sacrificial lamb for the purpose of giving sinful people an approach to God, thru the shed blood, just as the blood on the doorposts did in Egypt.
quote:
Isiah 53:7He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; ... For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people...11By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear. 12...due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death,... and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.
This sacrifical lamb was applied to Jesus by his followers.
quote:
1Corintians 5:7 For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed
quote:
John 1:28, 36 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: "See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world"
quote:
1Peter 1:18For YOU know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that YOU were delivered from YOUR fruitless form of conduct received by tradition [oral law] from YOUR forefathers. 19But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ's. 20True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU 21who through him are believers in God, the one who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory; so that YOUR faith and hope might be in God
these are just a few, but probably a good place to start.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2009 6:57 AM purpledawn has replied

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 Message 206 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2009 2:19 PM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 206 of 243 (513304)
06-27-2009 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Peg
06-27-2009 8:21 AM


Re: Lamb and Sin
Green's question was: Is there any scriptures that talk about lambs taking away sin? Yes.
Nothing you provided speaks of lambs taking away sin. Lambs are sheep that are less than one year old.
In Exodus the sheep's blood was a sign on the houses of the Hebrews so God knew which ones to pass over. The sheep's blood didn't take away sin.
13 And the blood must serve as YOUR sign upon the houses where YOU are; and I must see the blood and pass over YOU, and the plague will not come on YOU as a ruination when I strike at the land of Egypt.
In Isaiah he said the servant was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering. Lambs still have nothing to do with taking away sin.
In John 1:29, the statement "See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world", refers to Jesus obviously not lambs. Jesus wasn't really a lamb. The author of John seems to be the only NT writer to use the term "Lamb of God."
The bulls, rams, lambs, doves, flour, etc. of the Hebrew sacrificial system were essentially fines. The same as when one pays a parking ticket. The fines didn't take away sin.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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 Message 205 by Peg, posted 06-27-2009 8:21 AM Peg has not replied

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 Message 208 by Bailey, posted 06-27-2009 4:02 PM purpledawn has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 207 of 243 (513307)
06-27-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Bailey
06-16-2009 2:50 PM


Re: Definition of Christian Cult
A 'Christian' cult is anyone who relies on the ritualistic magic of a blood libel for the expressed purpose of attaining continuous living. (Reality, EvCost 193)
You are a cult member no better than a Yehovah's Witness.
Yes, I belong to this group of Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ:
Rev 12:10-11 "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death."
What cult do you belond to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Bailey, posted 06-16-2009 2:50 PM Bailey has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 208 of 243 (513309)
06-27-2009 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by purpledawn
06-27-2009 2:19 PM


Re: Lamb and Sin
Thank you for the exchange purpledawn.
Hope things are well in your camp ...
In John 1:29, the statement "See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world", refers to Jesus obviously not lambs.
A lamb maintained value in Yisrael's economy and is consistently symbolized as innocence and purity in scripture texts.
Sin is the fruit of a defiled religion and an offence towards the Father's humanity. Yeshua is the Anointed One.
So, Yeshua the Anointed One, innocent and pure, takes away the defiled traditions of the world.
In a not-so seemingly ironic twist of fate, after Yeshua adamantly refuses to promote atonement for sins through the letting of blood and is, hence, venemously murdered, various usurpers then attempt to re-establish the destructive and corrupted tradition that, according to Yirmiyahu before Him, became tightly associated with a popular and defiled form of Judaism from days of old even until first century CE, which involved ...
Sacraficing innocence/wealth to pardon sin/corruption.
The bulls, rams, lambs, doves, flour, etc. of the Hebrew sacrificial system were essentially fines. The same as when one pays a parking ticket. The fines didn't take away sin.
What did it do? It instilled guilt and fear within the masses and created wealth and abundance among (self?) proclaimed priests with too much ink on hand.
This ancient defiled tradition comes down to us in popular form through Levitical Catholics. Yet, if the Father viewed this as an unacceptable mentality to interweave through jewish traditions, it should reasonably follow that it is equally untolerable for a Roman tradition (Imperial Christianity) or any other.
Somehow, the idea that promotes blood revenge murder, and even of 'God in the flesh' at times, does not seem troublesome to many who cling to religion.
That seems to be pure unadulerated craziness - lol
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : grammar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2009 2:19 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2009 6:30 PM Bailey has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 209 of 243 (513320)
06-27-2009 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Bailey
06-27-2009 4:02 PM


Re: Lamb and Sin
Hey Bailey,
I agree that the use of lamb in John 1:29 probably pointed towards innocence and purity given the late writing of John.
In Message 203 Green made this statement: Is there any evidence that Jesus was a sheep? No. Is there any scriptures that talk about lambs taking away sin? Yes. This is a metaphor.
He got the sheep part right and that the term wasn't meant to be taken literal, but scripture talking about lambs taking away sin; I think he overstepped. Even the passover lamb mentioned by Peg wasn't truly a lamb.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Bailey, posted 06-27-2009 4:02 PM Bailey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Bailey, posted 06-28-2009 8:38 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 210 of 243 (513448)
06-28-2009 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by purpledawn
06-27-2009 6:30 PM


Regarding the Lamb o' the Father and veal parmesan ...
Thanks for the exchange purpledawn.
Hope things are well in your camp ...
In Message 203 Green made this statement: Is there any evidence that Jesus was a sheep? No. Is there any scriptures that talk about lambs taking away sin? Yes. This is a metaphor.
He got the sheep part right and that the term wasn't meant to be taken literal, but scripture talking about lambs taking away sin; I think he overstepped.
It seems that one's interpretation concerning the 'taking away' of 'the sins of the world' may heavily dictate any potentially useful determinations that the passage may have to offer. I agree with your assessment and if the lack of response on green's behalf is any indicator, he does too. As was previously mentioned, and I think we have agreed, the 'Lamb of God' represents the value of innocence and purity.
However, it certainly does not appear to symbolize the value of unjust murder or the value of dodging accountability from sin, blatant or otherwise.
At least, that is not what I am seeing. That just seems like more veal parmesan.
Even the passover lamb mentioned by Peg wasn't truly a lamb.
You appear spot on once again my friend. There seems to be a separate issue, as well, where Peg's reference involves dead animal blood and the depiction of HaMashiach by the author of John seems to denote, at a time when He is not yet bloody or dead mind you, the symbolization of 'The Lamb o' God' as a Living Being who establishes New Traditions that lead to Continuous Life.
This, as you have begun to show, is in stark contrast to smearing dead animal blood on a post in an attempt to escape one's judgement or fate. It may be worth noting that the day after Yochan is depicted as first making this declaration, he again points it out to a pair of his own disciples who were gathered as Yeshua was passing through.
They are depicted as following Yeshua, as a response to Yochan's testimony, at which point Yeshua quickly addresses them and their motives.
One may do well to try and remember that Yochan and His crew were not attached to the predominant monarchial traditions that, while promoting blood revenge techniques, had eventually formed and come to settle within Yisrael and Yuhdea. The reader learns that these two disciples are curious where He stays and when HaMashiach invites them to discover the location for themselves first hand, they do oblige.
These Immersers, too, were leftist radicals who denounced magical blood atonement concepts. I do not mean to oversimplify this, yet ... things may finally boil down to whether or not one feels the Father desires sacrafice in the first place, or even, at all. According to various religious incorporations, mercy is insufficient, and only 'a perfect sacrafice' can make amends.
According to HaToRaH, as interpreted through the Prophets, the Father desires mercy, not sacrafice.
You know where I hedge my bets.
One Love

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2009 6:30 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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