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Author Topic:   If the Bible is metaphorical then perhaps so is the God of the Bible
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 21 of 243 (509730)
05-24-2009 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CarlinKnew
05-22-2009 10:12 AM


Wrong question!
I'll rephrase then: how do Christians decide which parts of the Bible are true?
The right question is this one:
How do Christians understand the truth of Scripure?
Jesus answered this question in John 14 & 16,
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 10:12 AM CarlinKnew has replied

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 Message 24 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-24-2009 12:44 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 25 of 243 (509762)
05-24-2009 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by CarlinKnew
05-24-2009 12:44 PM


Re: Wrong question!
I answered your question with my question. Your question "How do Christians decide which parts of the Bible are true?" is like asking "When did you stop beating your wife?"
All parts of the Bible present God's truth, but it requires the Holy Spirit to take God's word and disclose it to you, especially the words of Jesus.

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 Message 26 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-24-2009 3:40 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 29 of 243 (509773)
05-24-2009 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by CarlinKnew
05-24-2009 3:40 PM


Re: Wrong question!
The basic rule in deciding whether or not something in the Bible is a metaphor is simply this:
Unless a figure of speech in which a word or phrase that "ordinarily designates one thing" is used to designate another, the words or phrases of the Bible are to be taken as being literally true.
Example - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).
In the verse just before this, Jesus said, "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."
Therefore, the "sheep" Jesus is referring to are those who hear Jesus' voice and follow Him.

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 Message 26 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-24-2009 3:40 PM CarlinKnew has replied

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 Message 31 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-24-2009 10:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 33 of 243 (509780)
05-24-2009 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by CarlinKnew
05-24-2009 10:02 PM


Re: Wrong question!
Are there similar metaphorical indicators in the creation story of Genesis?
Since you have moved from the clear "sheep" metaphor Jesus used in John 10:27, you tell me what you think may be a metaphor in the Genesis creation account, and I'll do my best to tell you whether or not I believe it's a metaphor.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 42 of 243 (509835)
05-25-2009 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by CarlinKnew
05-25-2009 10:55 AM


Re: Wrong question!
Well is the creation story to be taken literally?
Yes! That's why it says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Then it goes on to reveal how God created every creature after their own kind, and finally God created man in the image of God. If you think some parts are metaphorical, point them out from your viewpoint, and we who know our Creator will respond.
Edited by John 10:10, : added comments

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 66 of 243 (509963)
05-26-2009 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by CarlinKnew
05-25-2009 12:36 PM


Re: Wrong question!
Are the days of creation literally 24 hour periods?
Was the first man literally created from dust?
Was the first woman literally created from a man's rib?
Peg has answered these questions very well in Post # 50. I have little to add to her comments, other than to quote Gen 2:7 in its entirety:
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul).
What differentiates man from all the other creatures God created is that man was created in God's image (Gen 1:26-27), and man became a living soul.
If one becomes to hung up on the how of God's creation, or denying God's creation in it's entirety, one rarely finds or enters into the why of God's creation.

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 Message 43 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-25-2009 12:36 PM CarlinKnew has replied

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 90 of 243 (510026)
05-26-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by CarlinKnew
05-26-2009 12:21 PM


Re: Wrong question!
Purpledawn raised some questions in which I'm also interested in messages 35, 51, and 54.
Then raise them yourself. Purpledawn has not raised any questions with me.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 142 of 243 (510265)
05-29-2009 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Peg
05-29-2009 10:17 AM


Re: side note
Personally, i feel more confident knowing that the NWT is a translation that sticks to the original meaning of the writers rather then continue with false beliefs. Interestingly, the WT society used the King James version as their only bible text. but it was for this very reason that they undertook the task of making a translation of their own. The corrected a lot of the erroneous religious traditions.
Jehovah Witnesses are considered by Christians to be a cult. As such, they do not believe many truths that are necessary for true salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is why they undertook the task of making a translation of their own.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm

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 Message 137 by Peg, posted 05-29-2009 10:17 AM Peg has replied

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 147 of 243 (510318)
05-30-2009 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Peg
05-29-2009 10:57 PM


Re: side note
i thought cults were groups who follow a human messiah and who lock themselves away from society???
JWs do not lock themselves away from society, but they do follow a created messiah. A created messiah can never redeem man from his sins or give the gift of eternal life (John 6:27, 10:28).
3. God the Father. Known as Jehovah, the Watchtower considers Him to be the only true eternal God, the Almighty. They write, "There was, therefore, a time when Jehovah was all alone in universal space" (Let God Be True, p. 25). Being alone, the first creative act of Jehovah was to create His Son.
4. Jesus Christ. Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. They add the word "other" four times to Colossians 1:16,17, teaching that Christ was God's first creation, i.e., the reincarnation of Michael the archangel created by Jehovah, rather than the Creator. [The "Watchtower" teaches that Jehovah God created Michael the Archangel before the foundation of the world; Michael was His only begotten son by virtue of the fact that he was the only creature directly created by Jehovah. It was this created Michael who became the JW Jesus (i.e., a denial of the eternality of Christ). JWs say that "Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum or egg in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transfer of the life of his first born son (Michael) from the spirit realm to the earth" (Aid to Bible Understanding, p. 920). "Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his first born heavenly son (Michael) to the womb of Mary. God's own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary's womb so that what was born was a perfect human" (Reasoning, p. 255).] JWs also add an "a" in John 1:1, making the verse read, "the Word was a god" (which in essence, makes the JWs guilty of the same polytheism of which they accuse Trinitarians).

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 Message 146 by Peg, posted 05-29-2009 10:57 PM Peg has replied

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 150 of 243 (510355)
05-30-2009 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Peg
05-30-2009 12:27 AM


Re: side note
But I dont see how this makes them a cult or how it implies that they created their own Messiah. How do you define cult and what practices do they have which makes them such?
Read the entire article given in post 142, and many others that explain what JWs believe and practice.
What is a Christian cult?
What is the definition of a Christian Cult? A Christian Cult is defined by what they believe about Jesus. What does historic Biblical Christianity teach us about Jesus? The Bible teaches us that Jesus is the One and Only True God from eternity past who had no beginning and will have no end. We are also taught that this One and Only True God is of one essence, only one God, but is a Trinity of three Persons: The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Further, the Bible teaches us that God the Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, in time took on a full human nature with all of its human attributes by conception of the Holy Spirit through the Virgin Mary so that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is now, and will be throughout eternity, one person with a fully Divine nature and a fully Human Nature. This means Jesus has two full, complete and separate natures but is one Person. Further the Bible teaches us that Jesus lived a Human being's life on this earth for 33 1/2 years with all of it's human limitations by humble submission to God the Father; and that through this humble submission He was crucified, died, was buried and then on the third day rose His dead physical human body back to life as a glorified human body, and that forty days later he ascended to heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the Father with a full human and Divine nature, and will so forever.
Jehovah Witnesses & the Watchtower are also a Christian cult. They teach that Jesus was first Michael the Archangel the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God, who became a man, died and rose spiritually, not bodily, from the dead. The Jehovah Witness's Jesus is an Angel, not the One and only True God, and not a man. They deny both his humanity and His divinity and as a result are classified as a Christian cult.
http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/christ-cult1.htm
Also read Walter Martin's "The Kingdom of the Cults."
Edited by John 10:10, : added paragraph

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 Message 148 by Peg, posted 05-30-2009 12:27 AM Peg has replied

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 155 of 243 (510444)
05-31-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Peg
05-31-2009 5:46 AM


Re: side note
The web site I used simply said this:
A Christian Cult is defined by what they believe about Jesus.
If you cannot read and understand that what JW's believe and teach about Jesus defines them as a Christian cult, then there must be a reason why you are so supportive of what JW's believe and teach.

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 Message 153 by Peg, posted 05-31-2009 5:46 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 159 by Peg, posted 06-01-2009 4:03 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 162 of 243 (510543)
06-01-2009 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Peg
06-01-2009 4:03 AM


Re: side note
Please dont honestly tell me that you believe that if the trinity is not taught, then a group is a cult.
You continue to evade the primary issue of what determines a Christian cult. A Christain cult is one who does not believe that the eternal Word of God became, was not created, flesh (John 1:14), died on a cross to redeem man from his sins, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33). This is God's revelation as revealed in the Bible, and manifested to us in the Person of Jesus who says "I and My Father are ONE (John 10:30). Again I say there must be a reason why you are so supportive of what JW's and other Christian cults believe and teach.

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 169 of 243 (510649)
06-02-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Peg
06-01-2009 8:25 PM


Definition of Christian Cult
Then how about the source I gave you which said this?
A Christain cult is one who does not believe that the eternal Word of God became (was not created) flesh (John 1:14), died on a cross to redeem man from his sins, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33). This is God's revelation as revealed in the Bible, and manifested to us in the Person of Jesus who says "I and My Father are ONE (John 10:30).
There must be some reason why you are unwilling to tell us what you believe about Jesus, which is what primarily defines what is and what is not a Christian cult.

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 Message 166 by Peg, posted 06-01-2009 8:25 PM Peg has replied

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 Message 171 by Peg, posted 06-03-2009 3:05 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 172 of 243 (510738)
06-03-2009 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Peg
06-03-2009 3:05 AM


Re: Definition of Christian Cult
Jesus did indeed say "I and the father are one"
but he said a similar thing when speaking about his followers at John 10:16
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."
Jesus was talking about Gentiles and any other sinner who would repent of their sins, and honor Jesus as Lord. Obviously you do not accept the whole counsel of God's Word concerning Jesus, especially Phil 2:5-11 and Acts 2:33-38. Maybe the Jesus you believe can save you from your sins and give you the gift of eternal life, but I know the Lord Jesus I believe in does.
Those who do not honor Jesus as the eternal Word who became flesh and now sits at the right hand of God the Father as Lord do not rightly divide the Word of God, preach another Gospel of Christ, and therfore belong to and a part of Christian cults.
It's as simple ans as difficult as that!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Peg, posted 06-03-2009 3:05 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 173 by Peg, posted 06-03-2009 7:33 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3025 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 174 of 243 (510749)
06-03-2009 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Peg
06-03-2009 7:33 AM


Re: Definition of Christian Cult
and your own words above that Jesus "now sits at the right hand of God the Father" shows that they are two separate individuals.
These are not my words. They are the "revelation words of Peter" that he proclaimed on the day of Pentecost 10 days after Jesus ascended into into heaven, and the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ was born as 3000 souls repented of their sins, and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. So are the "revelation words of Paul" in Phil 2:5-11. The fact that you think Acts 2:33 shows that "they are two separate individuals" shows me that you do not understand what happened in John 1:12-14, what happened in Acts 2:33, and that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE GOD.
Yes, the prophetic words of Paul in 1 Cor 15:20-29 will come to pass as the Lord Jesus abolishes all rule and authority and power, then the Son Himself will be subjected to God the Father that God may be all in all.
This is the Gospel of Christ as proclaimed by Jesus (Luke 22:69), given to His Apostles, and is recorded in the Word of God. Yes, you can believe what you like, but those who rightly divide the Word of Truth get to define what is and what is not a Christian cult.
Pure and simple, a Christian cult is anyone who does not honor Jesus as Lord (Acts 2:36) who now sits at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 2:33).
Edited by John 10:10, : spelling error
Edited by John 10:10, : Added Luke 22:69 reference and definition of Christian cult.

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