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GDR Member  Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Ben writes: In the same vein, I don't think you can get mutual repect with a mindset that regards believers as idiots at best and evil at worst. Well said! I'll add my two cents for what it's worth. I came to this forum primarily to try and learn about science having no academic background in the field. I find it absolutely fascinating but I can only try and conceptualize what is being said as I don't have the math to understand it in any other form. I also happen to be a Christian. I'm not YEC, nor am I a Biblical literalist, but I do believe that Christ was God incarnate and in his resurrection etc. I'm hear to learn and occasionally present my ideas and ask questions, but on this forum I continuously see my faith being compared to Santa Claus, the tooth fairy etc. It seems to me that ridiculing people's most fundamental beliefs is hardly reasoned argument. It is rude, and if it wasn't for the fact that I can read the posts of people like cavediver, (even if I can only understand miniscule bits of his posts), I wouldn't stick around. I fully understand why you lose people like Faith and other Christians. Everybody is entitled to my opinion. 
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I'll try to answer all the replys to my post briefly in this one post.
Ringo316 writes: What is rude is taking the attitude that your "most fundamental belief" is more important or valid than somebody else's "most fundamental belief". Who are you to decide that a belief in God/Jesus is more acceptable than a belief in Santa Claus? This is my point. Where have I indicated that my "most fundamental belief is more important than yours. Of course I think I'm right, as you believe you are. Frankly I also recognize that I am undoubtedly wrong in some of my beliefs as we all are. This quote is an example of what I'm talking about. He has accused me of having a position that I don't hold, nor have I given any indication of holding such a position. If he wants to believe in Santa then he has every right to; just as I have a right to my beliefs. His belief in Santa is as acceptable as my belief in Christ but it doesn't mean that we're both right, or both wrong for that matter. As I pointed out, I'm not YEC and I'm not a Biblical literalist. There are a majority on this forum who take science as the only source of knowledge and there are those who say that a literal translation of the Bible always trumps science. Personally I have to try and balance the two off against each other. Simply put, I look to science to find out about the physical world, and I look to the Bible and other sources to discern what lies beyond the physical. That is all off topic, but I just want to be clear on my own position. The point was raised that Biblical literalists and YEC types don't last long on this forum. I was trying to point out why. Ned commented on how some Christians are condemning of those who don't share their faith. I don't share that point of view but they aren't ridiculing what it is that Atheists believe. They are only advising you of what they believe are the consequences of your decisions. Comparing my beliefs to believing in Santa or the tooth fairy is said intentionally to demean and ridicule. I'm only giving an opinion on why I believe that there are so few Biblical literalists or Christians in general left on this forum. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
crashfrog writes: And on the exact other side of the coin, I don't understand the rationale that, unlike all other stupid ideas, stupid ideas about something called "God" are to be granted the deepest respect and deference. Why are religious ideas priviledged? We all laugh when people talk about pink unicorns and spaghetti monsters, because those are silly things to believe in. I don't see why beliefs about God are supposed to be considered any less silly simply because the people who promulgate those ideas are, hilariously, totally serious about them. Why is your brand of bullshit so much more special than any other bullshit? I don't get it. I rest my case. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: But if they had read the Bible they'd understand that it is impossbile to read it literally. Literalists either don't bother reading the Bible or approach it, just as they do science, from a position of willfull ignorance. I happen to agree with you but so what? If you aren't prepared to entertain YEC types on this forum then say so. The evidence that they provide is based on a literal reading of the Bible. If the only reason to bring YEC's to this forum is to ridicule their beliefs in an effort to convert them, then don't be surprised when they don't hang around. Having said that I do agree that there are many on this forum, like yourself, that have engaged them in thoughtful dialogue. But in the majority of threads there is someone like crashfrog that will come in with the tooth fairy thing, (which is insulting to all people of faith whether they are YEC or not), and the whole tone of the thread changes. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
jar writes: There are atheistic Fundies too. I'll leave it to you to tell them who they are. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
NosyNed writes: The sooner everyone treats the literalists with the derision they deserve and gets the separation between them and more thoughtfull, sophisticated Christians clear the happy most Christians will be. Fine, treat their position with derision but don't be surprised when there aren't any of the literalist persuasion left here. I was able to have discussions with Faith without resorting to name calling and labelling. There was a post earlier on in this thread lamenting the fact that there were no more YECs to convert, yet there seems to be a a lot of complaining about the YECs trying to convert Atheists to their position. Evangelical Atheists seem to be applauded, but evangelical YECs are treated with derision. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Ringo316 writes: I don't think I ever called Faith names, yet she felt free to call me names. I'm sure many others could say the same thing. So, how do you figure she was "driven" away? I'm only speaking in general terms. There are any number of posts that treat her views with total contempt. Actually one of the main reasons that Faith gave for leaving was that she felt she was being drawn into responding in kind to the posts of others. Take that for what it's worth.
Ringo316 writes: I don't see that at all. I would challenge you to quote a dozen or so threads in which "evangelical atheism" is expressed - and another dozen in which that expression is applauded. To be honest I'm only trying to give admin a constructive answer to the question of why Christians and particularly YECs leave the forum.Here is a quote however from earlier on in this thread. night train writes: Regardless of how many creationists we turn away, regardless of how many (or few) converts we make, the fact remains that we have a low success rate with our arguments. If we can`t impress low numbers, how then can we find a formula for mass conversions in the real world? Ringo316 writes: The problem here is not that there's a double standard - if anything, the YECs are given too much leeway. The problem is that the YECs have nothing but their belief. When their belief is challenged, all they can do is whine and run away. It's back to labelling again. Why do you have to say "whine and run away". The use of such pejorative terms just detract from any dialogue, and is in essence name calling.
Ringo316 writes: When YECs drive by with their empty ideas, the scientifically-minded have no choice but to expose that emptiness. The site is called "Evolution versus Creation" after all - not "Creationist Soapbox". "Empty ideas" Another example of pejorative language. It is called "Evolution versus Creationism" so presumably both points of view should be respected and in order to do that one has to accept that, it is legitimate to express as evidence something that isn't scientific. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Just deleting post that wound up getting posted twice. (It wasn't that brilliant that it needed posting more than once.
) This message has been edited by GDR, 11-04-2005 10:49 AM
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Hi Ned
Frankly I don't want to start another thread that will deteriorate into more of the same. (Equating the Bible to the Book of ferries etc.) I think it is up to the admins to decide what they want to include as evidence. I also think that the admins should decide just what is allowed as debate on the forum. I'm in a minority here but I don't think that equating Christianity with a belief in Santa or the tooth fairy is reasoned debate, and I think posts like that should be deleted and the poster should have be sanctioned. On the other side, I personally believe that anybody who can look at the strange world of QM and the BB, or consider the range and depth of human emotion and come to the conclusion that this all happened through some huge cosmic accident, with no intelligent thought behind it, is seriously deluded and completely out to lunch. I've never posted that in any of the discussions on religion.I don't think a post like that adds to the debate, and is just a case of me labelling those who have come to a different conclusion about the genesis of this world than I have. As for myself I enjoy the science threads and mostly disregard the threads on Christianity because it inevitably seems to go the same way that this one has. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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