Internet Porn

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They probably don't but who does like their job? I'm sure people working in a chocolate factory soon lose interest in chocolate.

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Let me just remind you of what you said: I challenged your claim that the woman always actually likes what is happening in the scene, so it couldn't be degrading.Since these people are actors, you have no idea if they are liking any of it.The problem seems to be when people think, as you seemed to, that they wouldn't do it in a film if they didn't like it. Not true.

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The point is the movie is portraying something that other people like. Some people enjoy having their face ejaculated upon.

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How do you know?They are ACTING as if they do, but you have no idea if they really do.We know that men enjoy watching a woman's face being ejaculated upon, but that doesn't mean that the actress who is paid to look like she enjoys it does.

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You and I may find it repulsive but others do not and that is the very point.

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No, the point is that you cannot tell if an ACTOR in a porn film is actually enjoying what they are doing because they are paid to look like they are enjoying it.

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Who are we to dictate to others what they are supposed to like?

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I'm not. Your claim was that porn actors wouldn't do something in a porn movie unless they liked it, but that's not true.Porn actors are paid to LOOK like they are enjoying something, and unless you know the actors personally, you have no way of knowing if they actually like it or not.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-29-2004 08:49 AM

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I submit that, in general, facials are not performed because they intend to degrade or demean women, but rather that the male actor is shown ejaculating because it is 'proof' that the sexual act has been completed. While there are some female ejaculation erotica out there, one must admit it is much easier to visually depict a man's orgasm than a woman's.

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I've seen a little bit of Japanese porn, and in what I've seen there seems to be much more emphasis upon the woman's pleasure. They feature her sounds and the camera lingers on her face in the throes of passion quite a lot.It seems that, at least what I saw, the big turn on was how turned on the woman was.That kind of scenario is not really that prevalent in mainstream porn over here, am I right?

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This is why men are shown ejaculating as the culmination of the act - not because the act itself existed only to pleasure the man.

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Yeah, right, you just go on believing that. hahaha.

Schraf, I should feel very sorry for you, just as if I am sure you would feel sorry for me if said all of my experiences with women led me to feel most women were shrewy, shallow, manipulative, vain bitches that had no interest in relationships, other than to feed off of a man's money, fame, or attention.I don't know where you live or what your family is like. But I'll take you at your word that what you detailed was your experience.I pity you with the same pity I would have for someone that lived in a racially mixed area where those of the opposite race happened to fit a stereotype (lets say all the black in the neighborhood were thugs), and so came to believe the stereotype was real (all black were criminals).Your views of males are sexist, cheap stereotypes. I'm really really sorry if all you and everyone you know have only encountered males who fit that stereotype. You have lost out on the ability to live a better life. Yes I understood the argument the first time. I guess I didn't make my rebuttals clear enough.You can like a person as a person and have it only be sexual. Or you can like them as a person and have it be nonsexual. Or you can like them as a person and have it be both.You ARE having a mind/body problem. Sexuality is no different than any other human characteristic. Going to a restaurant because you love the way a certain chef cooks, or a comedy club because of a comedian's sense of humor, or a lecture for a scientist's thought-provoking ideas, is NO DIFFERENT than going to a strip club because you enjoy a stripper's ability to arouse yoru sexual desire.It is you who see some qualitative difference between sex and other human qualities, and use the one to rub out the others.Percy in the other thread porn thread, linked to an essay by a feminist who defends porn. In that she raises the question, if you liked a person because of their sense of humor to the exclusion of their other properties would that be wrong?You only know me through my writings. Let's say you had some respect for me because of what I wrote. Would that make you bad or lesser because you only wanted to know me as this, and because of this, and not anything else?Porn, and strippers and etc etc are for sexual entertainment. Women go to them just the same as men, other than in the exact same percentages.There is no reason to degrade this, and use it as evidence they are incapable of appreciating, or do not enjoy appreciating relationships based on other qualities.It appears to me that you have sex so tied in to love and relationships, that you no longer see it as a valid part of human nature without them. Again, I am sorry for you. You ARE missing out... at the very least of being able to understand the motives and benign nature of other human beings. Do I need to post the research links and stats for YOU AGAIN? Come on schraf, at least be intellectually honest here. We have been through this.In Netherlands (at the VERY LEAST) porn and prostitution have been around openly for a long long long time. People are still getting married. Sex is not Love. Love is not Sex. Sex can and must be a part of real Love. Real Love does not have to be a part of sex.Your continued "wondering" is only possible if you choose not to look at what has been presented to you... in RESEARCH DATA. Keep ignoring the data on the subject, keep wondering. I'm wondering when you'll admit you are pulling the same crap hardcore creationists are in refusing to look at what the data says, in order to pretend your theory is still possible? I wonder when you will read your own words and finally realize how bigoted against men and prudish about sex you really are.Enjoyment of sex for the sake of sex is NOT the same thing as denying, or not being comfortable in, relationships. This is something many people, including women, can separate.If all one is looking for at a particular time is sex, then it would be incorrect to seek a relationship in order to get it. That is where porn etc etc can play a role. I am failing to understand why that is not a good thing? It actually brings honesty to a relationship because you know that sex is NOT the only reason the guy is there.What I love is you pull up this crappy argument against a bunch of guys that are in relationships with girls, and we talk about porn. Hey, I can even have prostitutes legally. Why am I staying with my gf then?Maybe I... I... I L-O-V-E her. No. I said impossible or UNDESIRABLE. There are times when a person may want to enjoy sexual entertainment of some kind, and it is not desirable to do so with a partner. For example, if your partner does not enjoy oggling naked women then bringing her along on a night out with the boys would be undesirable.This would be the same case as her not bringing her guy along when the girls go out for a hen party. Whoops those things don't happen do they? Uh, yeah. According to you absolutely none, right? See according to you men don't seek out real relationships anyway. They are just putting up with girls for sex. So they are simply going from one type of prostitute to another.Okay, now I'll answer nicely. Of course guys go visit them alone. They are enjoying their own sexuality apart from their relationship. If that is not cool with their wives or gfs then they are being jerks. But it is not inherently a statement about their ability to love, or interest in relationships, even with the ones they are "cheating" on.You avoid the fact that they then move on to their relationships. Why are they, if they have these outlets? Why do couples also go to these places together?Why do girls go do the same things? Is it only the emotionally damaged ones? This is true. There are also sex-starved wives for many other reasons that their partner might have for not wanting to have sex (in general, or them in specific).Maybe there's a damn good reason the guys that left their wives hanging, in order to pursue porn, have done so. Maybe the wives are just lousy in the sack anyway and nag them into a state of flaccidness. DO YOU KNOW?I hear a lot of shit about how lousy girls are at just understanding guys' emotions. How they just use them for money. I guess that anecdotal evidence must be true, huh?Phhhht. If men are as shitty as you say they are then the wives ought to divorce men anyway right? They were only after the sex, and if they hit a dry spell it MUST mean something as uncomplicated as they just like porn.And all those women cheating on their husbands (while they are at work) via the internet, is just a bunch of whooee too, because women only like guys for their emotions. That isn't a growing problem either, and if it is it must be the fault of the guy having left her sex-starved because he watched porn.Honestly, shraf. Not that I am saying you are making these exact arguments, but they are on the same level. I just cannot fathom why you do not understand how shallow your introspection and analysis of real data is on this subject.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

You said a punter going to a site was okay, a person actually making a site was the one propagating it. Yes, recognize. No, believe in. Other than it existed at some point and so was part of the human psyche and so available for creating psychodramas, there is no need to believe it is legitimate. Yeah, I got that. I'm disputing the latter just as much as the former. In order to be one of, it must be capable of doing so. It is not. Coming from the person who has not only supplied no data, but refuses to address the large amount of contrary data presented by the person she is addressing. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.There is a fucking HUGE chasm between...having a real fear, based on stereotypes about another race, and using it to justify bigotryANDacknowledging that such sterotypes and fears existed and playing roles in order to garner sexual excitement from them.Unless one is a seriously schizoid personality the second is incongruous with the former. What decade are you from, or maybe century given your woodcut jibe?I'm sure there must be sites which riff on the forbidden pleasure of interracial sex. But that is certainly not all of them, and if you are into actually having and broadcasting interracial sex, the point of the "forbidden" aspect is to shock the idiots who don't get that its okay. If all you can see is humans, and have lost your ability to sense difference in sight, smell, taste, and texture as well as the ability to remember that there were social differences but they were not right EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE THESE PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES... then you are pretty well PC by definition. Are the differences between flowers trivial to you? How do you select which ones you want? What about food?People are different. Not only can you see large variations between people of two different races, but lots of minor ones within the same one.Are you seriously telling me you don't "discriminate" on any physical characteristics while choosing a mate? I'd wager you do. Why can't very dark skin and fine hair, or dark but not too dark skin an course hair, or blue eyes and light hair be "valid" discriminators like choosing chocolate over vanilla? No I haven't. You say it is a vehicle of propagation. Fantasy in this context cannot propagate what it is using. It is by its enjoyment contrary to the tenets of the racism used in the fantasy. Uhmmmm, not to say that that may not be a part of some of porn out there. But that wasn't what I was talking about at all. The myth they are riffing on is that blacks are better lovers, knowing how to please a woman and have bigger dicks.The intellectual capacity and criminality is part of your own projection. Bwahahahahahahahaha. Do you really believe this line of crap?A guy just gets off because he likes seeing white girls who dig having sex with black guys and he walks away thinking the next black guy is likely to mug him?I might add that there are several more types of "interracial" porn than simply black and white and they get advertised just the same.I'm still trying to picture your idealized world here. To prove no one is a racist no one will desire having sex with another race, or if they do like it no one will express that desire in that way (from now on all colour will be drained from erotica) so it is all just "humans." Talk about objectification. Uh no. People can have all sorts of reactions and desires to any material. But a racist getting off on cuckold porn is about as rare and confused as a nazi who likes watching The Producers and Hogan's Heroes because there are nazis in them.You will notice though, that you are making positive statements, and they must be pretty large because your condemnation puts the effects of porn ona societal level. Even if just one part, it is a part of societal continuance of an institution. That's a pretty whopping claim for someone with no evidence. I'm sorry, which was the dogmatic part? Was it when I offered evidence and wondered why you haven't refuted it before making your claims? Or the wondering where your data is to support your claims in the first place?You not only refuse criticism, you refuse to enter into a factual debate.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

No, I think house of cards is pretty accurate. You make claims and prop them with other claims. I have data which refutes it, it just doesn't fit your claims. If you had to accept them as true, then your little house of cards (which fit real nice using the cards you choose to play with) will fll to pieces. Heheheh. I love it. Hey if that is the picture it seems I am painting, let me dispell that right now.Some people, like any other industry, get forced into working in porn. Of course unlike most retail, you will not be seeing it on your shelves. You might find it online or in some back alley, but that is not what most porn is about.Some people (and I have already said this many times) do things in character for money, than they would do in real life. Some jerks in the industry even push people (boys and girls) beyond what they would like and what is safe. This is also similar to all other industries.Some people in porn hate each other and cheat each other. Some use drugs and spiral out of control. Some end up killing themselves. This is just like any other industry.Now Contracycle, warts and all, why don't you explain why porn should NOT be treated with the same respect as any other entertainment industry?Maybe I seem a bit happy about it. Well that's because me and my gfs biggest headaches have been the government (horrible documentation laws) and ripoff artists (both producers and distributors and some other artists). In other words red tape, and usual business crap.We have not seen any coercion and no massive drug wipeouts, and no racism, and no sexism, and no all that BS that gets thrown on porn and people like you want to paint porn with to make it look negative as an entity. You are an idiot. On top of that, you must also be very hard to go shopping or restuarants with. Oh wait, or easy.Do your simply throw darts to make choices? Obviously no one is allowed to have personal tastes based on visceral criteria, and I assume that must be true for you as well.I suppose you spit on black families you see at the park eating fried chicken.What a racist.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Schraf, I should feel very sorry for you, just as if I am sure you would feel sorry for me if said all of my experiences with women led me to feel most women were shrewy, shallow, manipulative, vain bitches that had no interest in relationships, other than to feed off of a man's money, fame, or attention.

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But, its not only Schraf. I can certainly say that, as a man, I have been privy to conversations between men which do degrade women, treat them as sex objects, and dismiss and and all concerns expressed by and on behalf of women as PC/Liberal whining. This is not fiction, and it is not just mad feminists who hold that position, and it is indeed the case IMO that many men do not actually like women very much - neatly summed up in the "can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em" sentiment.And furthermore, I believe this is learned behaviour, not one inherent to our biology or instincts.

[quote]I have data which refutes it, it just doesn't fit your claims.[/.quote]I looked back at the thread, I don't see anything rebutting my claims. Would you like to point to something specific?

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Some jerks in the industry even push people (boys and girls) beyond what they would like and what is safe.

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What? But surely, you've been arguing that only namby pamby man-hating femnisists would ever make a claim so absurd.

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Now Contracycle, warts and all, why don't you explain why porn should NOT be treated with the same respect as any other entertainment industry?

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Actually, that is EXACTLY what I am advocating; that the performers achieve the same rights; that racist tropes are not excused by artistic license or considering everyones kink equal.

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We have not seen any coercion and no massive drug wipeouts, and no racism, and no sexism, and no all that BS that gets thrown on porn and people like you want to paint porn with to make it look negative as an entity.

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Well just because YOU have not means little; thats a tiny local anecdotal experience. I am NOT saying it is an illegitimate experience, but you simply cannot generalise and claim as you are doing that this is how it is always and everywhere. You cannot persist in pretending that the only concerns ever expressed about porn are fictitious and malicious slanders.

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You are an idiot.

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Thank you for confirming your resort to ad hominem, and thus the admission you don't have a leg to stand on.

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Do your simply throw darts to make choices? Obviously no one is allowed to have personal tastes based on visceral criteria, and I assume that must be true for you as well.

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A classic disengenuous response; it is of course obvious that we discriminate according to relevant criteria. Thats the key, RELEVANT criteria. The race of of soemone you sleep with is not relevant UNLESS you are buying into that whole racist trope I identified.

So lets have a look at the happy, wonderful, care-free world of porn:Nato force 'feeds Kosovo sex trade'Ian Traynor in Zagreb
Friday May 7, 2004
The GuardianWestern troops, policemen, and civilians are largely to blame for the rapid growth of the sex slavery industry in Kosovo over the past five years, a mushrooming trade in which hundreds of women, many of them under-age girls, are tortured, raped, abused and then criminalised, Amnesty International said yesterday.In a report on the rapid growth of sex-trafficking and forced prostitution rackets since Nato troops and UN administrators took over the Balkan province in 1999, Amnesty said Nato soldiers, UN police, and western aid workers operated with near impunity in exploiting the victims of the sex traffickers.As a result of the influx of thousands of Nato-led peacekeepers, "Kosovo soon became a major destination country for women trafficked into forced prostitution. A small-scale local market for prostitution was transformed into a large-scale industry based on trafficking, predominantly run by criminal networks."The international presence in Kosovo continues to generate 80% of the income for the pimps, brothel-owners, and mafiosi who abduct local girls or traffic women mainly from Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia to Kosovo via Serbia, the report said, although the international "client base" for the sex trade has fallen to 20% last year from 80% four years ago.Up to 2,000 women are estimated to have been coerced into sex slavery in Kosovo, which had seen "an unprecedented escalation in trafficking" in recent years. The number of premises in Kosovo listed by a special UN police unit as being involved in the rackets has swollen from 18 in 1999 to 200 this year.A few weeks ago the UN's department of peacekeeping in New York acknowledged that "peacekeepers have come to be seen as part of the problem in trafficking rather than the solution".The sex slavery in Kosovo parallels similar phenomena next door in Bosnia, where the arrival of thousands of Nato peacekeepers in 1995 fuelled a thriving forced prostitution industry.International personnel in Kosovo enjoy immunity from prosecution unless this is waived by the UN in New York for UN employees or by national military chiefs for Nato-led troops.One police officer last year and another the year before had their immunity waived, enabling criminal prosecutions."Amnesty International has been unable to find any evidence of any criminal proceedings related to trafficking against any military personnel in their home countries," the 80-page report said.The report said that US, French, German and Italian soldiers were known to have been involved in the rackets.Criticism of the international troops in Kosovo follows a recent broader indictment of the Kosovo mission by the International Crisis Group thinktank, which called for the mission to be overhauled.Women were bought and sold for up to 2,000 and then kept in appalling conditions as slaves by their "owners", Amnesty said. They were routinely raped "as a means of control and coercion", beaten, held at gunpoint, robbed, and kept in darkened rooms unable to go out.Apart from women trafficked into Kosovo, there is a worsening problem with girls abducted locally. A Kosovo support group working with victims reported that a third of these locals were under 14, and 80% were under 18.The UN admission in March that its peacekeepers were part of the problem was welcome, said Amnesty.Footnote: And yes, it is entirely likely that some of these performers will be seen in the West, via the internet. It is, after all, global - as is the demand.This message has been edited by contracycle, 06-29-2004 11:23 AM

edited for banality...This message has been edited by custard, 06-29-2004 01:03 PM

HA HA HA HA HA HAaaaaaaaa. Sweet.

Go to one and I think it will be self-evident. Go to one and you can see for yourself how many. So which is it Scraf? Some men have difficulty with intimacy, or many, many men have difficulty with it? I'll make it easier for you, give us a percentage (your own estimate is fine).I submit that some women have difficulty with intimacy and this is a human traight/failing regardless of gender. Do you disagree?What is 'real intimacy?' What is 'real relationship stuff?' You keep referring to this, I'm curious to understand what you mean by this.What about the 59% of the US male population over 18 cohabitating with and/or married to women, are they incapable of 'real intimacy' and 'real relationship stuff?'I submit that by virtue of cohabitation and/or (semi)permanent commitment, these men are capable of intimacy and 'relationship stuff.'Do you have a single SHRED of evidence beyond your obviously very personal perspective that this is true? Hate? What behaviors do they demonstrate that indicates they hated their spouses, or all women, before they got married?This message has been edited by custard, 06-29-2004 12:48 PM

AH ha ha ha ah ha hah ha ha ha ha! Sorry, but you need to go back to the Japanese porn section and check out more videos.I lived in Japan and was exposed to a significant amount of that country's pornography. I was shocked that such an outwardly demure society had such an infatuation with little girls in school uniforms, rape fantasy, and sado-masochism. Usually all three combined.I saw it everywhere - in the Manga, in the adds in the back of magazines, in the Anime. I had never been exposed to women who were blindfolded, gagged, bound, and covered with hot wax - then I went to Japan; and I swear, compared to the US, it was omnipresent.And Schraf, where do you think the phrase Bukkake came from? It refers to multiple male partners ejaculating on a woman's face - a woman who, in Japanese porn, is often bound in some way.That's why I laughed in response to your post. It's not you, but I couldn't have picked a WORSE example to demonstrate the type of pornography that puts emphasis on the woman's pleasure. But perhaps I misread them your previous posts?This message has been edited by custard, 06-29-2004 02:14 PM

People can make the exact same argument about women. Women never get together and gossip about the men in the office? Heck, from my observations of women's discussions (as valid as yours regarding men), I think women can be ten times more vicious then men.I just don't understand what any of this proves except people can be real assholes towards each other. Men don't like women? Or men don't like certain behaviors about women? I think that phrase is referring to the latter. In fact, the statement is just as valid for any close relationship - especially when people live together.Aren't there phrases that express similar sentiments about family? Does that mean sons hate fathers and daughters hate mothers? Well I have heard some sons say they hate their fathers, I guess my observation, combined with a clever turn of phrase, makes the statement 'all sons hate their fathers' true? It does using your reasoning.

If you "looked back" and saw no research discounting the claim porn transmits or reinforces misogynist cultural messages, then you didn't READ.What you can find pretty easily if you read post 17 or the link in 27 were studies (in addition to the studies on no real personal changes) showing there is no evidence that there is a decrease in women's rights nor increased acts against women where porn is prevalent. Indeed, it was found that porn correlated (notice I am not saying caused) with liberal attitudes towards women.I had nothing about race issues and porn because as far as I know there are none. There is no reason that it should not follow the same track as women's issues.You can't simply post that you didn't find it and so act like you are justified. Others can go and they will find it.On the other hand you have presented nothing to make your case, in addition to not addressing the results of the studies.Oh wait... I see that you posted an article on an increased slave trade in Kosovo. Bravo. Now you've uncovered what porn is really about.In any country but especially lawless lands with desperate people, or really greedy people, or really sick people, you will get abuse for all sorts of reasons. That will mean forced labor of ALL kinds.I'm not sure why this says anything about PORN, just as sweat shops say nothing about CLOTHES. What this exposes... good for everybody... are people abusing people. Who gives a shit what they were being forced to do? Yes, that seems to be the strawman you have built around me. Hahahahahah... are you seriously saying this for ALL media, or just for porn?I've already pointed out the reductio. Unless you are going to arbitrarily put the weight on porn, you are ending a hell of a lot of fiction, well almost all really except the teletubbies. Nor have I. I take real claims very seriously. For example that article you had on the Kosovo sex trade was quite disturbing and I hope to learn more about it.What I do dismiss, is the over repeated generalizations and guessing games thrown on PORN, as if it is all one thing and guilt shared communally.When someone exposes a sweat shop we do not say how bad clothes are and our desire to wear them shoving people into awful servitude and stereotypes and deride businesses that make them as perpetuating such stereotypes (god forbid you go to a chinese laundromat).We do not have "I wonder what would happen if all people wanted to buy clothes" arguments, and ignore stats that show the clothing industry has no effect, nor people choosing to wear clothes.We don't even blame costume makers for making nazi uniforms or hitler masks for condoning nazism.We blame the people who forced people into a sweatshop and exploited them. It is specific.That's what defines rational response to an issue, from generalized bigotry. I've got some sad news for you.The existence of an ad hominem comment does not indicate that it is being resorted to, nor an admission (or proof) that there is no substance to the rest of the argument in which it contained.In addition, ad hominems can come cloaked in much more fancy clothes than the crude remark. As far as I can tell your entire argument is ad hominem and guilt by association. It just sounds a lot nicer off your keyboard.Tell you what. The only sure way is to present a coherent argument with evidence. Please present you argument with evidence to support your claims. This is not logical.What factors go into who you choose to sleep with? Many of them will be physical criteria. The different races will have different physical characteristics, and thus fulfilling different criteria.You would be correct if a person chose a person of a different race because they are stereotypically supposed to choose that race, they are buying into the stereotype.However, if they happen to honestly like having sex with people of a different race for other reasons, like preference of physical characteristics or just new experiences beyond what they are used to, then that has nothing to do with a "trope".I would like to see any evidence you have that people who choose, or prefer to have sex with those of different races are doing so because that is what they are supposed to be doing, rather than having another reason.What makes this really laughable is that it can only be made in a society where such "tropes" existed. You know there are people outside of western countries which also end up dating exclusively outside of their race?You also have decided to concentrate on black/white as the whole of interracial, as there are no real stereotypes linked to bigotry in other interracial acts (except that oriental girls are hotter?) and they are just the same part of interracial porn.I will rephrase a question I put to you in a flippant way. If a black person ends up prefering fried chicken to eat, MUST it be because of buying into a trope? If not, why does prefering a white girl for sex partner? If so, should all blacks stay away from chicken in order to destroy the trope?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Actually all YOU need to do is go back through porn threads and check out more of Schraf's posts.In the past (indeed I believe it is within THIS THREAD) she excoriated Japanese porn for its concentration on young girls and rape.I was shocked when I saw her post saying they were more interested in the pleasure of women. They are the most NOTORIOUS pain and rape centered porn consumers... and a pretty big producer.And this not to mention Bukakke. I mean.... hahahahahahahahaha. Oh its just too much.There is nothing like hearing people that no NOTHING about a subject, act like their little forays and brushes with it, made them some sort of authority.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)