Internet Porn

Now I have to support custard here, and it contains the flipside to schraf's valid point.Just because some people in porn do for money what they don't do for fun, does not mean that that is what everyone is doing... it's just you can't tell who's who.And there are PLENTY of people doing exactly what they want, including facials. My gf loves facials because she loves cum, and there are many people like that. In fact I was with one girl at a jerk-off "gangbang". All she wanted was guys to cum on her and she would have orgasms.I'm certainly not saying all girls are like this, but they are out there, and girls are not inherently degraded by a facial. I would add the same goes for boys in gay porn.Heheh. Kind of funny but I have also been with two girls (separately) that wouldn't let me go down on them because they felt it was degrading to me.Yes there are facials which are meant to be degrading, but that can only be known by watching them in the context of the film.Most times it is a visual cue that the sex is over, and it is something that many people find exciting to watch. Did and did.This message has been edited by holmes, 06-29-2004 04:53 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Holmes, I must say that I always find your little glimpses into the porn life to be at once surprising and fascinating.No hidden criticism intended, I just wanted you to know that I for one am edified every time you post on this subject, and often you touch upon (no pun intended) something that my wife and I had discussed recently (in this case, the whole facials thing.) Keep up the fascinating material, please. (Did you ever consider writing a book? Or maybe you know of a good one?) I find your mix of acadmic-style gender role analysis and behind-the-scenes porn information quite informative. Gender roles in porn seems to be a subject I blunder into quite a bit among my friends but I think you're the only person I've heard of that actually has the experience to give it the consideration it deserves.

What the hell are you doing on EvC so early in the morning?Anyhow... Cool, thanks. I hope she likes them, but to each their own. Yes and no. Actually I'd prefer a documentary to a book.Unfortunately everything I've found on the subject is limited to analysis of the debate on porn (although there are some good analyses, that doesn't sound like what you are talking about), or amateurish "glimpses" at porn life, which for some reason most of those have to throw in moralizing bits or justifications.I've heard Xaviera Hollander's book on prostitution (the Happy Hooker) was pretty interesting, but I haven't read it.The recent documentaries on Ron Jeremy (Pornstar) and Annabelle Chong (I forget the name) were okay, but had some of the failings I mentioned above.It may be a tough thing to get a real glimpse into the porn world, first of all because it is so huge and diverse, and second because there is so much baggage that comes with it that audiences will expect you to deal with.We'll see though. Now that my main media project just dropped out from under me and I am living in a redlight district, I am considering starting a doc on that.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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So people are supposed to look for what they want, but no one is supposed to supply it, or have it as their main supply? That's what a market is.

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Well, I don;t consider myself subirdinate to the God of capitalism, being an atheist myself, so the term 'market' carries not totemic significance for me; like everything else, a market is a human endeavour. There was a market for anti-semitic cartoons in Weimar Germany - so what?

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Second, of those that focus on the Interracial stereotype, that is a fantasy they are dealing with. Do you honestly believe there is a site out there which is run by a bigot, dealing with interracial porn from a stereotype angle? You have got to get back to reality.

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Actually, I am asserting that the target audience is exhibiting and indulging in racist stereotypes. IMO, it is not a good thing to pander to and reinforce these sterotypes, no.

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No, not it's propagation, it's ruin.

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Its a collection of concepts that have stayed remarkably intact, as you demonstrate, for over a hundred years. It is propagation.

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If you are watching a tape, and getting hot and bothered, of black guys having sex with white girls, or white guys with black girls, or white guys with orientals, or etc etc... then it is really unlikely you are going to wander around thinking you don't like people of other races. Unless you are a total schizo, of course

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I'd say clearly the opposite - becuase someones race doesn;t matter to you at all, and you consider any penis socially and morally compatible with any vagina, then the skin tone of the particpants is a total Non Issue. It can only be a specific kink for people who think that it DOES matter.

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That includes scenarios in which sterotypes play a part. Many of which (I might point out) deal with the white guy getting overthrown or put down. All the negative about whites, and the positive of the others. Yeah, real propagation.

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Yes, exactly - as I have already pointed out, the white guy getting put down is indeed part of the stereotype, an integral part. Becuase in fact the arenas in which one is put down and the other raised feed directly into other racist agendas.

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You seem like a person that can't take a joke.

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You seem like a person who can't recognise a joke and takes everything at face value.

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Perhaps not but who decides for the other person.

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As always, the duly constituted legal authorities of the realm. Note there is no approval inherent to this observation.

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If someone enjoys making porn who has the rightful authority to say that person suffers from Stockholm Syndrome?

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Well, if we REALLY had to make a diagnosis, we would need a qualified psychiatrist and a second opinion. But I am not proposing any such thing; all I am proposing is that we apply the cautionary principle to self-reported claims. That is the sum total of my point.

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Porn, gun control, marijuana use....Stockholm Syndrome, suicides, jumping off buildings??......compared to personal enjoyment, protecting one's property and easing the nausea of chemotherapy. Doesn't anyone understand the definition of "Free Country" or "Freedom"?

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Well, exactly. To me, for example, the existance of laws that preserve property are one of the hallmarks of not being free. I declare any society which incorporates private property is not a free society. you are obliged, I think, tyo recognise that your personal definition of freedom is not universal and can be debated.

Shoot, I totally FORGOT!Yes there is a pretty good look into the life of a person in porn. It has its own skews here and there, and is definitely scripted (so it ain't a real doc like it pretends to be)...Family Business. It's on Showtime (or HBO, I forget now), and follows the life of Seymour Butts as he shoots porn and tries to raise his kid.Me and my gf liked it a lot.During it you can even see him try and talk an assistant out of becoming a star (which personally I didn't like the moralization on that one), and once she was in porn for a bit, not to get her breasts enlarged (I did like the moralizing on that one).These are things producers of PORN are assumed never to do.I'd also recommend checking out things by Annie Sprinkle.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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I submit that, in general, facials are not performed because they intend to degrade or demean women, but rather that the male actor is shown ejaculating because it is 'proof' that the sexual act has been completed. While there are some female ejaculation erotica out there, one must admit it is much easier to visually depict a man's orgasm than a woman's.

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I will largely agree with this, not least to demonstrate that I am not applying a huge blanket condemnation. Steven Fry put this quite into the mouth of Oscar Wilde in the recent movie: "the lover wants to come in you, the pornographer wants to come on you", although I don't exactly know if it is a Wilde quote.

Workin'. Night desk at a hotel. *blush*Actually she had seen some porn with her friends and wondered why guys liked to watch it. I replied that I didn't much care for it, but maybe some guys were turned on by demeaning women or something.Clearly it was the right answer for my wife but I see my explanation is flawed, now. I'd love to see that.

Are we having the same conversation? What the hell are you talking about totemic significance and Gods of capitalism.I was not even making an argument that the market determines what is right.I just thought it was odd to excuse the person who wants to see something, but blame the person (who usually also wants to see that same thing) and produces it.The buyer is the same as the seller. Yes yes YESSSSS! You are getting closer to understanding.The audience is WATCHING (not exhibiting or they wouldn't watch it) and indulging, wallowing in those stereotypes. Its fun to use your brain in all sorts of ways as long as you don't mistake fantasy for reality.If you understand what you are watching and enjoying is pure fantasy, even if based on some historical truths (though usually these are blown out of proportion for the sake of fantasy), then there is no pandering to or reinforcing of stereotypes. Its more or less making a mockery of them. Stealing them so that they become sources of pleasure instead of the pain which they were. Until you demonstrate that it is interracial porn that has kept racism alive, you are simply making absurd assertions.In fact your very statement above conflicts with the claim has any connection to its survival. 100 years? Gramps didn't have a computer, much less anything called "interracial porn". Who are you? Will Hunting? A robot? I have never heard a voice more devoid personal experience and human emotion than what is contained in that statement.Tab A into slot B, should not identify any exterior characteristics as additionally beneficial. Double plus good.Open your fucking eyes... no go further and touch a person of another race's SKIN. Smell them. Taste them you moron. Everyone looks, tastes, and smells different. Especially those of different races have differences you may pick up on as appealing, even if its just for the fact that it isn't what you've been experiencing for most of your life.Do you go into a greenhouse and say... all plants are plants, none should appeal more. Do your bouquets have to have all one flower because to mix them aesthetically would be to make a political statement?I suppose I can't even choose chocolate or vanilla because all ice cream is the same and so choosing a particular color would be social commentary?Human taste CAN include different races because they are different. Denial of this fact is the real racism.And I would add, going so far out of your way to remove odious parts of history, that you say others should be unable to recreate them in personal sexual fantasy, you are totally out of touch with how humans deal with reality through fantasy.Hogan's Heroes did not enforce Nazism. Saving Private Ryan did NOT support Nazism. Raider's of the Lost Ark did NOT support Nazism.Likewise, interracial porn does NOT support racism. You simply cannot be this clueless. Porn which has white men getting put down is feeding into racist AGENDAS? How?Oh, the guy watching and getting off on that fantasy, turns around and tries to kill blacks because he feels justified in believing his gf or wife will want a black guy instead? Is that what you are seriously trying to claim?Such porn riffs on the fears that might have underlain the racism. It makes it a tantalizing FANTASY, which is a RECOGNITION THAT IT IS NOT REALITY. Oh, is that it? Whew. I didn't realize your whole argument was a joke... though now that you say this I see how funny it is.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

And who is the person that likes to be cum upon?Oh and apparently Wilde (or the writer who wrote that droll line) never heard of creampies. Do you know what that is in porn? Its a big trend.This message has been edited by holmes, 06-29-2004 07:32 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Oh my yes. And if we really wanted to draw conclusions you have made one would need research... but you are not proposing any such thing either.Of course not, because to do either would mean your whole ideology would collapse like a house of cards.In this thread I have put up real data and I have referenced it more than once. Yet you continue to make the most absurd claims.Stockholm syndrome? You realize you demean both hostages and people in porn with that statement?But that goes with the territory when you make an uncle Tom out of any black guy who actually prefers a different race sexually.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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All I can say is I feel very very sorry for you.

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Don't. I actually generally get along with men very well, and most of my best friends have been men. OK, several of those best friends have been gay men.I've just had lots of experiences and made lots of observations over the years, from a very early age, that tend to lead me to believe that many males are bewildered, frightened, and threatened by females. Or, they feel like they have the right to threaten and tell females what to do. Or they feel like they have a right to sexually grope and touch a girl or woman just because they want to. In general, many men seem to be somewhat emotionally stunted or repressed and have a lot of discomfort and diffuculty with being emotional and emotionally connected.I have personally experienced or observed all of these things in my life, and so have most of my female friends and family members.By no means do I think this is the majority of men and boys, but it has always been present in my life. Very few of the rest of the perrfectly nice men or boys I have known has ever broken away from the crowd to protest any of this misogynistic behavior. They have participated in it less, but almost never spoke up against it.It's just a fact of life for most women I know.

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Huh? If they liked girls, they would not find them attractive and want to have sex with them?

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If they liked girls as people rather than just the object of their lust, maybe commercial, no commitment, no expectation sex wouldn't be quite as popular.

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Just because boys like to play with their sexuality (which is what you were just referring to) does not mean that they don't enjoy being around girls for other reasons as well.

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Of course. Good thing I never said they didn't.I just wonder how this glut of availability of unreal sexual experiences in which the girl does what you want, doesn't expect anything emotional of you, and then goes away when you tell her to does for the not insignificant group of boys who don't really like women as people.

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And just because boys might like girls intellectually doesn't mean they are going to stop wanting sex with them.

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Of course not. Good thing I didn't say that.

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You are having a mind/body problem. This stems from a basic prudish stance. You view these issues as somehow superior/inferior to each other rather than just natural.

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It's natural for boys to not like women?

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I should add this also does not seem to make sense given the amount of gay/lesbian porn, strippers, and prostitution.

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There is no gender issue in gay commercial sex work, is there?There is a long, long history of misogyny in this country which is still reflected in many aspects of our culture and daily lives. I'm not saying that all commercial sex is to blame for perpetuating it, but I just wonder how much the availability of commitment-free, relationship-free sex contributes to the idea that the main purpose of girls is for sex in the minds of that not-insignificant group of boys I mentioned above.While it may be true that boys use prostitutes, porn, and strippers to be playful, I wonder if it is also true that boys use these things because they are, as a result of our culture, emotionally repressed WRT interpersonal relationships, and therefore are uncomfortable with real intimacy and real relationships. They are raised to be less equipped to deal with all of the expectations of emotional participation their wives and girlfriends put upon them within these relationships, so they consume commercial sex simply because it is less scary and easier.In short, the reasons men use prostitutes, porn, and strippers are not always as simple, I don't think, as you make them out to be.

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There are times and situations which make it impossible or undesirable for a person to have a partner in a deeply commited relationship magically appear for sex. This is what porn, stripclubs, and prostitution is about.

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Um, what?What is a bachelor party if it isn't someone who is in a committed relationship; so committed that he is about to get married, going to use strippers, porn, or possibly a prostitute too, right before the ceremony?Are you saying that the people who use porn, stripclubs, and prostitutes are people who aren't in committed relationships?How many married men or men with long-term girlfriends visit prostitutes or the strip club on their way home from work, or are you saying that only single men without wives or girlfriends use these things?There are more than a few lonely, sex-starved wives because their husbands would rather look at porn on the internet than have sex with them. It's a growing problem.

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Generally on sexual topics I always refer to males as boys or guys and females as girls, ladies, gals, and sometimes chicks. That's cause it's more playful sounding. In the context of this thread I have also used WOMEN.

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You're absolutely right, my bad. I was taking the one post out of context.

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Are we having the same conversation? What the hell are you talking about totemic significance and Gods of capitalism.

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Well, I'm not sure whether you're keeping up...

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I was not even making an argument that the market determines what is right.

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that is the argument that I thought you were making...

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I just thought it was odd to excuse the person who wants to see something, but blame the person (who usually also wants to see that same thing) and produces it.

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... but it seems I misunderstood your understanding of my point. I didn't lay blame on any one at any time.

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If you understand what you are watching and enjoying is pure fantasy, even if based on some historical truths (though usually these are blown out of proportion for the sake of fantasy), then there is no pandering to or reinforcing of stereotypes. Its more or less making a mockery of them. Stealing them so that they become sources of pleasure instead of the pain which they were.

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I think thats blatantly impossible; becuase without recognising the stereortype and its associations, THERE IS NOTHING TO OBSERVE.

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Until you demonstrate that it is interracial porn that has kept racism alive, you are simply making absurd assertions.

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Nope, you are resorting to over-extention again. I never said "porn is keeping racism alive"; what I said that porn is ONE OF the venues replicating these stereotypes keeping racism alive. And often, this is becuase of a knee-jerk refusal to inspect or consider the content of porn on the basis of a sort of hippy you're-ok I'm-ok refusal of all porn regardless.

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In fact your very statement above conflicts with the claim has any connection to its survival. 100 years? Gramps didn't have a computer, much less anything called "interracial porn".

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None the less, substantial proportions of Governer Bartle-Freer's call for the conquest of Zululand are propogated by this porn. This trope has been in circulation since the dominant technology was the wood-cut, and that is howe Gramps encountered it.

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Who are you? Will Hunting? A robot? I have never heard a voice more devoid personal experience and human emotion than what is contained in that statement.

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Really? Just because I don't find inter-racial sex "forbidden"? How absurd.

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Open your fucking eyes... no go further and touch a person of another race's SKIN. Smell them. Taste them you moron. Everyone looks, tastes, and smells different.

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Thats right. So what?

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Especially those of different races have differences you may pick up on as appealing, even if its just for the fact that it isn't what you've been experiencing for most of your life.

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Not really, no, but then I grew up in a multi-racial society (although not the PC sense) so as far as I'm concerned its all just human.

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Human taste CAN include different races because they are different. Denial of this fact is the real racism.

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I'm not aware of any differences beside the trivial.

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And I would add, going so far out of your way to remove odious parts of history, that you say others should be unable to recreate them in personal sexual fantasy, you are totally out of touch with how humans deal with reality through fantasy.

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Well, if it is your argument that these people are recreating odiuous parts of our history for the personal sexual enjoyment, then you have 100% given me my point. They are enjoying racism as fantasy.

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Hogan's Heroes did not enforce Nazism. Saving Private Ryan did NOT support Nazism. Raider's of the Lost Ark did NOT support Nazism.

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Likewise, interracial porn does NOT support racism.

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Correct - it IS racism. Hogans Heroes is set against a backdrop; the presence of Nazism is incidental. In interracial porn, race is absilutely central; that is the whole point of the product.

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You simply cannot be this clueless. Porn which has white men getting put down is feeding into racist AGENDAS? How?

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I have told you - the false allegation that blacks are more 'earthy', savage, bestial. Hence the projected association of blackness with criminality, with lack of intellectual capacity, by contrast to the civilised, intellectual, but admittedly un-animalistic, white.

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Oh, the guy watching and getting off on that fantasy, turns around and tries to kill blacks because he feels justified in believing his gf or wife will want a black guy instead? Is that what you are seriously trying to claim?

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The guy goes out, and sees a black dude crossing the road, and because he knows that blacks are more savage, more lusty, and less intellectual, its more likely that this black guy is a would be mugger than it would be if he were white.

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Such porn riffs on the fears that might have underlain the racism. It makes it a tantalizing FANTASY, which is a RECOGNITION THAT IT IS NOT REALITY.

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You seem absolutely determined to impute the best possible intent onto all the viewers absolutely regardless of who they are. You do not and can not know what the viewers intentions are, what they get out of it. You cannot know this, and yet you make strong assertive statements that they all, universally, must be completely and totally innocent, and all have exactlyu the same response to the material. How likely is that?This is exactly what I criticised earlier; the dogmatic refusal to accept any criticism at all.

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Of course not, because to do either would mean your whole ideology would collapse like a house of cards.

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And now the resort to ad hominemt and confirmation of bias?

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Stockholm syndrome? You realize you demean both hostages and people in porn with that statement?

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By no means. You do, however. Again you seem determined to deny the possibility that anyone at all in porn is coerced or unhappy. You paint a picture for us of a happy-clappy singing wonderland where nobody does anything they don't want to do, and nobody is pressured, and everyone treats each other with genteel civility. It doesn't apply in any other industry, why should it apply to porn? Wake up and join the real world.

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But that goes with the territory when you make an uncle Tom out of any black guy who actually prefers a different race sexually.

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Uh dude, I didn't say anything about Unle Tom's - but a black guy who is wants to have sex with someone just because of their race is being exactly as racist as someone who denies a job to another on the basis of their race. Perhaps it doesn't carry the same impact, but it is exactly the same analysis: the only thing that matters is skin tone.Footnote to pre-empt a possible response: I reiterate that I have never claimed that that any sexual act between people of differing colours is what I have ointed out; thats just two humans being, as Roger Waters would say. What I have identified is the specific trope of the 'forbidden' interracial liaison accompanied by messages of the higher sexual prowess of a particular race and the concommitant implications as exhibited by the much-reproduced cuckolding scenario.This message has been edited by contracycle, 06-29-2004 08:33 AM

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That is faulty logic. Men go to strip clubs and prostitutes because they offer something that men can't obtain through traditional relationships, not because men don't want to have traditional relationships.

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What, exactly, can't men get through traditional relationships that they can get in a strip club?

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How does your conclusion support the fact that in many strip clubs you can find couples enjoying the entertainment?

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Many? Really?

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How does it support the fact that many patrons are married or involved in relationships with women?

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Well, right. Real relationship stuff, real intimacy stuff is too difficult or scary for some men, so the stripper and prostitute is there.

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Why would men bother with relationships at all if they were only interested in doing so for the purpose of having sex?

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I didn't say "only". It's not that I am saying that some men really hate women but get married for the sex.I am saying that many men just don't "get" women and intimacy and aren't that interested in ever "getting" women and becoming more comfortable with intimacy in relationships, regardless of how many relationships they have or how long a relationship lasts.I am also making a connection between the many, many men who are uncomfortable with emotional intimacy and the popularity of emotional intimacy-free prostitutes, strippers, and porn.