Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.

Not to speak for Shraf, but I know in my case that I do not believe in the existance of the Xian god. Any discussion of this supposed entity is like a literary discussion. I don't need to believe Scarlet O'Hara was a real person to have a discussion with a book club about her motives.I THINK most atheists or agnostics are merely discussing what they see written in this particular book and comparing it to what others SAY is written there.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com

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I did not say learning things was the reason for all suffering although it is usually a big part.

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Actually, that is what you said: The above certainly seems to say, quite clearly, that God wills everything to happen, no matter how horrible or disgusting.It also seems to clearly say that bad things are necessary for growth and understanding of good things.Are you softening this statement at this point in the discussion?Because, if you aren't, then you basically are saying that it is God's will that 6 year old children are raped and murdered for no good reason.I hope you realize that nobody will think less of you if you decide to change your stance if you have rethought things.

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It still annoys me that Schrafinator says God causes rape/killings though.

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It's not my idea, it's hangdawg's.He's the one that says that nothing happens except by the will of God, so the rape and murder of 6 year olds must happen by the will of God.It is a simple logical conclusion.

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From God's point of view, he will recieve the child after her murder, and she will reside in heaven like satan resides in the mouth of the unbelieving.

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Wow, you can speak from God's point of view? Pretty arrogant of you, wouldn't you say?Also, demonizing "unbelievers" is SO Spanish Inquisition. You must be disappointed that you can't throw all of us Satan-mouthed unbelievers in the stocks, or burn us at the stake like they used to, huh?

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An atheist does two things, they say "God doesn't exist" and when it doesn't work, they then say "he's the bad guy". So which one is it. WHy do they entangle themselves with this? Can they now please choose which one it is, bad guy or no existo.

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You forgot to include what the believer says.It goes like this.Atheist: "I don't believe in God"Theist: "How can you not believe? Look at all the wonders of His work on the Earth and for his people! He is the merciful, most loving allmighty who sees and controlls everything all!"Atheist: "If nothing happens without God letting it happen, why is there so much pointless suffering, like children getting raped and murdered? It seems like he isn't that merciful or loving if he lets that kind of horror occur."Theist: Satan resides in your mouth, unbeliever!

I am talking about atheists ofcourse. Schraff and you are both agnostic, I didn't mention agnostics. Ofcourse I did say "unbelievers".You shouldn't take offense that I say satan is in the mouth of unbelievers. I only say it because of what the bible says about satan. Now I know that some of you might not blame God for rapes/killings etc, or are less vocal about such things. I will explain why I say this about satan in the mouth of unbelievers;Now satan said to Christ, "turn this stone to bread, IF you are the son of God". Obviously, satan is saying that if God doesn't obey satan's command, and make the stone bread/stop the killings/evil --> then he isn't God. This is very similar to what I hear from unbelievers. So, now you can see that my words may seem harsh but they have a reason for being that way. All things are there and plain to see, yet the unbeliever unwittingly says what he should say and will say. If the strings are seen, maybe then they can be cut.

I'll speak as an athiest then. The "some of us" that blame God are not the atheists. That "some" are those who say God is all powerful and in control of everything.See Schraf's Message 92 where she quotes Hawndawg as saying God is in control of everything. If that is so then this God is not only all powerful but all responsible too. An atheist isn't going to blame God for anything. We're pretty convinced he isn't responsible for anything at all.You're the one who knows God. You tell us what he can and can't do and is and is not responsible for. Just don't blame us if you get tied in logical or ethical knots when you do.This message has been edited by NosyNed, 06-14-2004 10:39 AM

You know, I'm glad that you brought that one up. It's a great story for kids. They can learn alot from it just as they can from the flood myth, the exodus myth and some of the other wonderful stories told and most likely acted out, around the campfires many, many years ago.But IMHO, Atheists are not the threat here. Rather the threat is believers, particularly those who try to make the world and GOD fit their view.Jesus was GOD. The tale told here is far more about internal temptations than about some external Satan. Satan offered nothing that Jesus himself could not do or have. It is a tale of the eternal and internal doubts and struggles we all must go through. Take Satan out of the story (it would not have been as exciting) and instead, have Jesus stand on the hill and simply talk to himself. It would be the same.But the questions that many raise are not the work of Satan. They are only the questions that are in all of us.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, unfortunately, you really aren't the guy who I was thinking about when I said "atheists". I know this may seem like an attack on all atheists. It's not really an attack though. You see, if you take the position that God isn't responsible, then that is ofcourse the correct atheistic response. I just don't think athiests can have it both ways though. Now, I don't recall you being one who is blaming our God all the time. So I am wrong to generalize. Yet I still stick by what I said concerning those atheists that never attribute a good thing to God, only bad things. If one is ready and able to say the biblical God is responsible for evil, then they have not read the bible, and failed to read the parts about satan/the enemy.Again, I must stress, you are the last person I was thinking of, so - yes, I was wrong to generalize by saying "atheist". I am glad you say; Believe it or not, that's one of my points. You see, if those people that don't believe and proclaim atheism, do not actually take the proper stance, then they are not really just atheist, but they are really and simply against God.I am trying to show that unbelievers are against God, but not all of them ofcourse. Yet many, many people ARE against him. Especially Schraff, when she said that God is responsible for rapes/killings.

Mike,We've had this discussion so many times before. I believe the last time I asked why Nature was 'evidence' that God exists if Nature is full of things that seem cruel, wasteful, and random.Now you're taking the stance that only atheists would blame God for rapes or murders. However, we're trying to point out that if God is all-powerful, then He either makes such deeds happen or does not stop them. It's easy to believe in a God who's only responsible for good and beautiful things, but you have to remain consistent. In Isaiah 45, God claims he creates both good and evil, and that nothing exists except through His doing.regards,
Esteban Hambre

Yet, they are the only two possibilities in your mind. If you are truly a neutral and good soldier of stringent scientific mind, you will accept a third possibility against your wishes. You will accept that God might not have made them happen, that humans "let" them happen, by accepting sin rather than God, yet if God is all-powerful, surely you accept a fourth possibility; That God has chosen to deal with evil in his own way. Not by I, anything. Isaiah; I form the light and create darkness.; I make peace and create evilOfcourse, nothing exists without God like you say. But if you read the rest of the chapter, why is it the "Lord our righteoussness"?. Isn't it plain that God is good? If God tells us to be righteouss in the Lord, and comes as our righteoussness, And casts out evil; Is not surely his ultimate and all-powerful purpose, that which is good? Everything in the bible points to goodness/righteoussness with God. If he creates evil (satan), that doesn't mean he is the present doer of evil. It is well established that when the Lord came, he came and cast out demons and evil, healing people was his main activity. Adam chose to go against God's command, which is sin. THIS is how human's "let" sin in. Even God used other people against his own people in Jeremiah, BECAUSE they sinned against him.

Atheists are not the threat? "He that doesn't believe, the wrath of God abideth on him". He who is not for me is against me.Some atheists are dedicatedly against Christ and God. I am not fitting God to my view, I am reading what is said. Even Christ said who the enemy was, and if those people agree with satan, "IF you are the son of God" And if those people harbour doubt rather than faith; and also say the same as satan, and don't believe in the only begotten son of God, then who exactly IS my enemy. I have loved my enamy Jar, yet it is pretty obvious, that when people say "Christ is a fairytale" then obviously I am against that.How you can turn this on the believer is a bafflement to my mind. A believer doesn't blame God for satan, a believer believes that Christ cast out satan/evil. Just HOW is the believer the threat?Your posts baffle me more than ever. Are you now saying that the events of Christ's temptation was not real? Are you comparing Christ to myth? You sound very similar to the atheist, maybe you are correct, maybe YOU, the believer--> are the threat. Yes, maybe your logic is correct, for if next, you suggest that God is the doer of evil, shall then you be a proclaimer of belief, and a doer of atheism/doubt? Do you think Christ cast out evil? Answer me straitly.

Mike,Th OP in this thread sums it up nicely:You assume that God exists, then assimilate all the data as confirming your assumption. In other words, everything that happens is part of God's plan, because if it weren't part of God's plan, it wouldn't have happened.

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Isn't it plain that God is good?

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If you assume that He is good, then everything that He either causes or allows to happen is good, because otherwise it wouldn't have happened, and He wouldn't let something happen that wasn't either good in itself or in the service of a greater good. What you're setting up is a construct that can't conceivably be tested or disconfirmed, and merely relies on the believer's absolutely unquestioning faith for its validity.regards,
Esteban Hambre

Yes, you most likely disagree with me.But no where did I say Christ is a fairytale.What I said was that Jesus was GOD. That seems pretty straight.And I said, the tale could as easily be parable. The meaning and message is the same.Satan offered Jesus nothing that Jesus could not have done on his own. The temptation was that all that was offered was infact, well within Jesus capabilities.He was GOD. Do you doubt that if he cast himself down that angels would bear him up? Do you doubt that if he so desired he could not make all men worship him?I don't.The difference is that he did not simply fall to temptation.Whether the story is true or parable is not the message. The message is independant and above the facts of the tale.Yes, IMHO, Aethists are not the threat. But those that seem to believe that forcing belief is the answer, have totally missed the import of the messge.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Because there are a million possible explanations beside the ones we can currently come up with, and most of them we can't even think of. I don't understand how you can so eagerly accept a phenomenon as somehow divinely inspired yet you simply dismiss possibilities like extraterrestrial intervention. By simply saying "Goddunit," you practically say, "I have no will to bring myself out of my state of ignorance."

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The Laminator

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But I didn't "assume" Jesus Christ. I was told of him, nor did I assume God exists. I don't think evil things are God's plan, I think evil things are satan's plan. For he was a murderer from the beginning, did I assume this sentence into existence? You are correct that I rely on faith - absolutely! But you are assuming that I have "assumed" these explanations. They are in the bible, that's why I support them. Only one is Good, God, did I assume this sentence?

Mike, where did Satan come from?

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com