Method of Madness: post-hoc reasoning and confirmation bias.

Now hear more from Isaiah, and understand not. IS. There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked.

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IS. Oh that thou hadst hearkened to my Commandments! Then had thy peace been as a river.

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IS. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness....., and thou hast said in thy heart, I am, and none else beside me.
Therefore shall evil come upon thee.

Heaven.

To mike_the_wiz: Who DID Satan murder?Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

one problem. the torah and tanakh never mentions satan as being evil. the nt kind of hints at it, and finally culminates in his fall in revelation, at the end times. if you believe this is literally referring to hasatan, the spiritual entity, he works entirely for god up until this point. i do not believe this to be referring literally to satan, but a symbolic interpretation of a real person who tested, tests, or will test christians.satan does not have the power to operate outside of god's will. he is man's adversary, here to test us. he is not god's adevrsary. anything else is to say that he challenges god for power, which detracts from god's omnipotence -- blasphemy.similarly, lucifer is a mangled translation of heylel, the morning star, a title for the king of babylon. a title rightly owned by jesus, not satan. so there's no problem when he calls hismelf the morning star in revelation.the whole bit about lucifer = satan = the devil, god's opponent, who fell from the heavens in an epic battle before the creation of man is straight from milton's "paradise lost" -- not the bible.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 06-16-2004 07:49 AM

The will of God, as in "your will be done". Because God's will isn't any old happening per day you know. His will was salvatian, and to preach the Gospel, healing and making believers etc. His will is nothing to do with evil, that's satan's will. God has said that he will not take seperate the wheat from the chaff untill the harvest. Ahahaha. You always say that. But I have the truth. It's funny that you so regularly want to relate me with such happenings. But I also, regularly deny that I have had any part of such things. I am as relevant to witch burning as you are. I would have seen such events as the workings of evil, like I do now. The frightening thing is, that I actually think you really do think I would have a part in such things. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone".As for satan in the mouth of the unbeliever, that's a dramatic statement, yet in reality a simple truth. You see, satan was the spreader and harbourer of doubt and "want". Satan asked Christ, "IF you are the son of God". If all I ever hear from the unbeliever, is the preaching of doubt and negativity towards God, then surely your ideas are similar to satan's.

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I am trying to show that unbelievers are against God, but not all of them ofcourse. Yet many, many people ARE against him. Especially Schraff, when she said that God is responsible for rapes/killings.

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I didn't say that, hangdawg did.He said that ALL THINGS happen only if God allows it.ALL things.ALL.Not only good things, or just things, or loving things.ALL things.So, it logically follows that a God that is responsible for ALL things is responsible for the rape and murder of children.That ALL things happen through God is hangdawg's position, not mine.I don't know if God causes anything to happen at all, because I haven't yet seen any evidence of this happening.

Even if he allows all things it doesn't mean he is responsible for them.If I let my brother fly my helicopter and he crashes it because he fell asleep, is that my fault? He was fully licensed, and knew how to fly it. Yet I allowed him to do it. YET it was his fault, for he was no forced to fly (rape/kill) it.I can see that God might allow all things, and without his universe, nothing would happen. However, he is not responsible for the murderer's act, the murderer is. That's logical, yet you'll deny it because of your unbelief. No, he is logically responsible for creating the universe in which someone is responsible for a rape and murder. He "allows" it is different to he is "responsible" for it.

Whoever said god is responsible for rapes and killings is correct. Or don't you read the bible?

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(from Numbers - Bible.org | Where the World Comes to Study the Bible)

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31:6 So Moses sent them to the war, one thousand from every tribe, with Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest, who was in charge8 of the holy articles9 and the signal trumpets in his hand. 31:7 They fought against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they killed every male.

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31:14 But Moses was furious with the officers of the army, the commanders over thousands and commanders over hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 31:15 Moses said to them, "Have you allowed all the women to live?17 31:16 Look, these people through the counsel of Balaam caused the Israelites to act treacherously against the Lord in the matter of Peor--and there was the plague among the community of the Lord. 31:17 Now therefore kill every boy,18 and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man.19 31:18 But all the young women20 who have not had sexual intercourse with a man21 will be yours.

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Want more? Here is a list of links to God sanctioned rape and murder in the bible: Page not found – Evil Bible .com.This message has been edited by custard, 06-17-2004 05:25 PM

But didn't Moses say it? Are you saying Moses is God?The young women "will be yours". is hardly proof that they raped them. The website is biased and wants us to think that they were raped.Listen, showing me a possible failure of the Commandment by a human is all very well, but how does that make God guilty? Isn't it the human's that are guilty? You must show me a quote of Christ saying he shall rape and kill. OT "nasties" are irrelevant. If they did murder/rape then maybe the blood is on their own hands, BUT I will need a quote from Christ saying something like, "Yes, you can murder and rape". Yet I think a more accurate thing would be him saying, "Thou shalt not kill".This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-17-2004 05:37 PM

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Even if he allows all things it doesn't mean he is responsible for them.

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No?God is in control of everything, according to hangdawg.Nothing happens without the sanction of God accordingto him.

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If I let my brother fly my helicopter and he crashes it because he fell asleep, is that my fault?

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If you are all-knowing and all-powerful, and also all-loving, then yes, it is indeed your fault.Mike as human is limited in his power, yet mike as all-powerful, omnicient God has limitless power.Furthermore, Mike as God who is in control of everything is most certainly at fault.Remember, this isn't my argument as to the nature of God, it's hangdawg's.

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I can see that God might allow all things, and without his universe, nothing would happen. However, he is not responsible for the murderer's act, the murderer is. That's logical, yet you'll deny it because of your unbelief.

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No, it's not logical as hangdawg has described the nature of what God knows and what God can do.Hangdawg says that God is in control of every single thing that happens in the universe, and that the bad things that happen to us are to teach us something.

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No, he is logically responsible for creating the universe in which someone is responsible for a rape and murder.

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So, God is not all-powerful and doesn't have control over everything that happens?

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He "allows" it is different to he is "responsible" for it.

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If God is all-powerful and every single thing happens through his will, then he is responsible.

Handdawg is young. He might have said the bad things are to teach us something. That's too simplistic though. In some cases, bad things may well teach us something, but the God of the bible has made it clear that basically, - evil is what satan is about, and Good is what God is about. I'm sure you would have read the NT, and will see my point. What about if I also know that I can raise my brother from the dead?By your logic, my mother is responsible if I get murdered or die, because she knew I would die one day, yes? Not to step on Hangdawg's toes here, but what? Is he your prophet?
The nature of God and what he can do is in the bible, and you know that Schraffy. Now when did you conclude that your not liking the outcome means he isn't all-powerful?Didn't I say that his will be done? If the girl resides in paradise from henceforth forever, then what was God's will? We know the rapists/murderer's will. Stop this unbelief you naughty girl.It seems you'd let the rapist/killer go free, and your happy to let God take the punishment. Yet Christ being innocent, took suffering, after living a perfect and righteouss life on earth.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-17-2004 08:19 PM

In your opinion, would reality appear to operate differently from how you perceive it to operate now, if God and Satan didn't exist and didn't interact with the world: if everything was merely compliant with the natural laws of the universe?

Baba-batman,I said nothing about Moses, the bible says this:

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31:7 They fought against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they killed every male.

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This is quite clear: they killed every male Midianite because the Lord commanded them, through Moses, to do so.Do you honestly contend that the Lord commanded Moses to fight against the Midianites, but not kill every male? That, for some reason, Moses decided to tack on 'oh, and kill all the males while you're at it' to the Lord's commands for kicks?C'mon man. The Lord said kill 'em and they did. How is that not murder?This message has been edited by custard, 06-17-2004 08:41 PM

Okay then, what do YOU think 'they will be yours' means? It sounds like slavery at best to me, but I'm open to your interpretation.The website where I found the scriptures referring to rape was evilbible.com, but I copied and pasted the biblical quotes from Bible.org | Where the World Comes to Study the Bible. How can these scriptures be any more biased than the printed version?

The OT is a field day for you little quote minors. Yet you always avoid the innocent guy who also chose to kill HIMSELF after living a life of peace and righteoussness. Yet we already know what YOU think of such things custard boy. That's right, God laid down his son for the sins of others, yet you will happily see it as God's fault that human's kill? I suppose you'd let the rapist walk would you? Why not let the rapist rape if you think your logic is so correct? And then you can say "It's okay rapist - I blame God, don't worry about this incident". I suppose that would please you?