Contradictions between Genesis 1-2

You asked me to outline some of the things that make the two stories mutually exclusive. I did, if you disagree then present your best argument for why there are not two stories.

Well if Moshe actually wrote anything then the evidence is that "Yes, he was that stupid."

But there is no evidence Moshe ever wrote anything or even existed.

But the question of why the redactors who were certainly capable of reading not only included two different, mutually exclusive stories, but went a step further and placed the younger story first is a good one. Why did they include two stories of Creation that exclude each other, if one is true the other is false?

They include both stories because creation is not really what the stories are about. Creation is simply plot devices, tools to use to talk about what was really important to the story tellers.

They put the younger story first because it served as a introduction, a wide angle view from afar, that shows a Transcendent God that oversees everything.

They then combined several of the older tales from a time when folk saw God as just a super human.

Again, creation is but a plot device to allow them to present a different view of god, a kindler gentler god, one with many human limitations and weaknesses, one that is somewhat fumbling and unsure, fearful and limited, but also intimate, solid, chatty, companionable.

The plot devices in the rest of the story post creation allowed the authors to get to other material that they thought important, why man had to work as a farmer instead of simply foraging like other animals, why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems harder and more painful for humans.

And that seems to be the point of this thread.

Why did the redactors include two obviously mutually exclusive and contradictory creation myths?

Secondly, Moses wrote the rest of the Pentateuch consistently.

NJ writes:There is no disparity. These objections are like Sunday school for atheism. And here you are thinking you've really got something of profundity.

NJ writes:One is a brief synopsis, where the other is going in to more detail. It is in no way two different events.

NJ writes:"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." -Genesis 2:1This is the continuation from the first chapter, because in the previous chapter, it says:"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."Right there is your indication that it stopped, after the sixth day."And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made... These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"You could make a better case that Days actually mean long epochs of time, not an actual lunar day.

NJ writes:What are you talking about? Are you joking? Seriously..."And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."It says that God the man (singular), and then, just like in the first chapter, God made him a helper, the female, because it is not good for man to be alone.Where is the disparity?

NJ writes:Yes, which most Christians argue is evidence of the Trinity. After all, when God says, "let us make man in our image," who is the "us" and the "our?"Secondly, Elohim and YHWH is the same thing, just as Adonai, El Shaddai, HaShem are different names for the same Being-- which we refer to in English as, God. That would be like saying Jehova and Yahweh are actually two different Gods, when in reality, they are different names for the same God. Or worse, like saying Yahweh and God are two different Beings rather than two different names for the same entity.

NJ writes:No, like I said, one is a synopsis and the other is detailed. There are no actual changes to anything. The only thing different is the brevity.

NJ writes:Yeah, which corresponds with what I just said above.

NJ writes:Trial by error? Why do you say that? Where was the error? Where was the trial?

NJ writes:Adonai in Hebrew means Lord. Prefixing LORD next to God does NOT mean that two different gods exist. Ask any scholar, even the most liberal one. Its simply your misunderstanding. I don't even know any fundy atheists who have ever made this objection, which should certainly tell you something.

NJ writes:Just one! The very one God said NOT to eat from in the first place-- the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

NJ writes:The earth was given by God for His creation. Mankind is to have dominion over the earth, which does not give man the go ahead to rape the earth.

NJ writes:Again, one is a synopsis, the other slightly more detailed. There is nothing specifically contradictory in any of the alleged contradictions whatsoever. You have endeavored to make a mountain out of a molehill, and not very convincingly at that.

Yes, which most Christians argue is evidence of the Trinity. After all, when God says, "let us make man in our image," who is the "us" and the "our?"

Keep your sunday school shit out of this debate. It offers no evidence. The evidence I have is simple. Elohim means GOD. YHWH ELOHIM means LORD God or if you to disrespect the Jews; Jehovah God.

YHWH (JHVH) & Elohim are the same entity but from different sources, written at different times.

jar writes:Stuff like "Keep your sunday school shit out of this debate. " is not really needed nor is it correct. As someone who has taught both adult and children's Sunday School, the actual topic is exactly the type of material I would cover in class.

jar writes:One of the results of trying to shoehorn the two different stories into one is that when we do so, we loose sight of what the authors and redactors are trying to tell us. This is as true here when talking of creation as it was in the Manna thread and numerous others over the years at EvC.

jar writes:The important point in these stories is not the details of creation, but rather the very conceptions of the God of creation itself. In both cases it is GOD that creates, yet neither story alone describes GOD, rather each describe a God, a snapshot of how the people of a give era and milieu thought of God. The older tale in Genesis 2 and later pictures a very Anthropomorphic God, one that looks human, walks, talks, makes things by hand, is forgetful and unsure, fearful, makes mistakes, but is also super human, magical, and that lives forever. The biggest differences between this God and man is that this God preceded man, has command of powerful beings and forces and lives forever.It is a very human God.The God of the tradition found in the younger tale found in Genesis 1 through the first half of Genesis 2:4 is quite different.It is not given any clear form. The closest we come to any physical description is the passage were this God creates man. But the differences continue, the younger God is apart from creation yet overseeing it, creates not by hand but by will, has no direct contact with what is created but looks on approvingly, satisfied.When we consider that they included both descriptions, we see a composite picture (even later than either tale itself) of a God that is both, transcendent yet intimate, apart yet inclusive, beyond comprehension yet companionable.The redactors, by including both stories, are saying that GOD is far more than just the Gods we imagine.

Yah·wist (ywst) also Yah·vist (-vst)
n.
The putative author of the earliest sources of the Hexateuch in which God is consistently referred to by the Tetragrammaton.The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000

E*lo"hist (?), n. The writer, or one of the writers, of the passages of the Old Testament, notably those of the Pentateuch, which are characterized by the use of Elohim instead of Jehovah, as the name of the Supreme Being; -- distinguished from Jehovist. S. Davidson.
- Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (1913

So, if I could find a sunday school teacher that supports the contradictions then we could resolve this debate?

So you acknowledge two stories?

The point was that there was actual differences in time from one creation story to the other. I could care less how long it actually took according to the stories.

Read the entire context of the damned scripture.

If you read scripture and stop covering your eyes when you read it you may agree with me. You will notice that LORD God created man, then everything else, then realized he forgot something, so then LORD God created female. That is much different than the Genesis 1,2:1-3 story.

The evidence I have is simple. Elohim means GOD. YHWH ELOHIM means LORD God

or if you disrespect the Jews; Jehovah God.

Please stop with the sunday school teachings. You need to bring varifiable information.

Contrast difference below:

Please stop with the sunday school teachings. You need to bring varifiable information.

NJ writes: I think you are misunderstanding me. My comment about "Sunday School" was referring to your alleged contradiction. The "Two Creation Account" theory is like a question a little kid asks his Sunday School teacher. In other words, I think your post is kind of asinine.

NJ writes: No. I acknowledge one story with varying descriptions -- one more descriptive, one less descriptive.

Really? And how exactly have you deduced that? I'm sure biblical scholars the world over would very much like to hear how this esoteric knowledge has come to you.

NJ writes: I have... You should follow your own advice because its evident that you either only see what you want to see or your intellect is suspect.

NJ writes: Oh for heavens sake... Again, are you kidding me with this Mickey Mouse stuff?!?! God didn't forget to make a female, especially when right before He made male and female for every other creature on the planet. its Jewish poetry. The blindingly obvious illustration is that it is good for a man to be with a woman -- that God designed it as such that a man and a woman would desire each other's company.It looks like you are a biblical literalist... Literally! I, on the other hand, look for genre and figures of speech to illustrate a greater, overall point like most people do.

NJ writes: Elohim is the plurality of God, since "EL" means God. Its similar in Arabic. Ever hear the insurgents screaming Allahu Ahkbar? Allahu is the plurality of Allah -- Allah being the singular. YHWH is the highest emanation of God, which is supposed to be ineffable.

NJ writes: Speaking of disrespecting Jews, and God for that matter, your trite argument is tantamount to calling Jews idiots -- as if they don't understand their own language. I doubt that no one else on earth has come to the wild assumption you've come up with based on a cursory glance.

NJ writes:I have brought to bear verifiable information. I'm waiting for you to present an argument worth defending.

NJ writes: Okay...? What am I supposed to be seeing? God says, eat from the vegetation I provide for you, just don't eat fruit from this one.

NJ writes:How many times are you going to say that? Why not answer my questions. Why not debate the information I provided? Your entire reply consisted of you re-posting Genesis, as if I don't have access to a Bible, and then repetitiously saying the same things over and over again.Try debating the issues. Its what we're all here to do.

Adonai=YHWH - J WriterGenesis 6
5 ADONAI saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only.
6 ADONAI regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. 7 ADONAI said, "I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them."
8 But Noach found grace in the sight of ADONAI.Genesis 7
1 ADONAI said to Noach, "Come into the ark, you and all your household; for I have seen that you alone in this generation are righteous before me. 2 Of every clean animal you are to take seven couples, and of the animals that are not clean, one couple; 3 also of the birds in the air take seven couples - in order to preserve their species throughout the earth. 4 For in seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; I will wipe out every living thing that I have made from the face of the earth."5 Noach did all that ADONAI ordered him to do.7 Noach went into the ark with his sons, his wife and his sons' wives, because of the floodwaters.10 After seven days the water flooded the earth.12 It rained on the earth forty days and forty nights.and ADONAI shut him inside.17 The flood was forty days on the earth; the water grew higher and floated the ark, so that it was lifted up off the earth. 18 The water overflowed the earth and grew deeper, until the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 The water overpowered the earth mightily; all the high mountains under the entire sky were covered; 20 the water covered the mountains by more than twenty-two-and-a-half feet.22 everything in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life; whatever was on dry land died. 23 He wiped out every living thing on the surface of the ground - not only human beings, but livestock, creeping animals and birds in the air. They were wiped out from the earth; only Noach was left, along with those who were with him in the ark.Genesis 8
6 After forty days Noach opened the window of the ark which he had built;8 Then he sent out a dove, to see if the water had gone from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove found no place for her feet to rest, so she returned to him in the ark, because the water still covered the whole earth. He put out his hand, took her and brought her in to him in the ark. 10 He waited another seven days and again sent the dove out from the ark. 11 The dove came in to him in the evening, and there in her mouth was a freshly plucked olive leaf, so Noach knew that the water had cleared from the earth. 12 He waited yet another seven days and sent out the dove, and she didn't return to him any more.20 Noach built an altar to ADONAI. Then he took from every clean animal and every clean bird, and he offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 ADONAI smelled the sweet aroma, and ADONAI said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, since the imaginings of a person's heart are evil from his youth; nor will I ever again destroy all living things, as I have done. 22 So long as the earth exists, sowing time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night will not cease."

God- Priestly WriterGenesis 6
9 Here is the history of Noach. In his generation, Noach was a man righteous and wholehearted; Noach walked with God. 10 Noach fathered three sons, Shem, Ham and Yefet.11 The earth was corrupt before God, the earth was filled with violence. 12 God saw the earth, and, yes, it was corrupt; for all living beings had corrupted their ways on the earth.13 God said to Noach, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth. 14 Make yourself an ark of gofer-wood; you are to make the ark with rooms and cover it with pitch both outside and inside. 15 Here is how you are to build it: the length of the ark is to be 450 feet, its width seventy-five feet and its height forty-five feet. 16 You are to make an opening for daylight in the ark eighteen inches below its roof. Put a door in its side; and build it with lower, second and third decks. 17 "Then I myself will bring the flood of water over the earth to destroy from under heaven every living thing that breathes; everything on earth will be destroyed. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you; you will come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 "From everything living, from each kind of living being, you are to bring two into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they are to be male and female. 20 Of each kind of bird, each kind of livestock, and each kind of animal creeping on the ground, two are to come to you, so that they can be kept alive. 21 Also take from all the kinds of food that are eaten, and collect it for yourself; it is to be food for you and for them."22 This is what Noach did; he did all that God ordered him to do.Genesis 7
6 Noach was 600 years old when the water flooded the earth.8 Of clean animals, of animals that are not clean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the ground, 9 couples, male and female, went in to Noach in the ark, as God had ordered Noach.11 On the seventeenth day of the second month of the 600th year of Noach's life all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the sky were opened.13 On that same day Noach entered the ark with Shem, Ham and Yefet the sons of Noach, Noach's wife and the three wives of his sons accompanying them; 14 they, and every animal of every species, all the livestock of every species, every animal that creeps on the ground of every species, and every bird of every species - all sorts of winged creatures. 15 They went in to Noach in the ark, couples from every kind of living thing that breathes. 16 Those that entered went in, male and female, from every kind of living being, as God had ordered him;21 All living beings that moved on the earth perished - birds, livestock, other animals, insects, and every human being,24 The water held power over the earth for 150 days.Genesis 8
1 God remembered Noach, every living thing and all the livestock with him in the ark; so God caused a wind to pass over the earth, and the water began to go down. 2 Also the fountains of the deep and the windows of the sky were stopped, the rain from the sky was restrained, 3 and the water came back from completely covering the earth. It was after 150 days that the water went down.4 On the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The water kept going down until the tenth month; on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains were seen.7 and he sent out a raven, which flew back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth.13 By the first day of the first month of the 601st year the water had dried up from off the earth; so Noach removed the covering of the ark and looked; and, yes, the surface of the ground was dry. 14 It was on the twenty-seventh day of the second month that the earth was dry.15 God said to Noach, 16 "Go out from the ark, you, your wife, your sons and your son's wives with you. 17 Bring out with you every living thing you have with you - birds, livestock and every animal that creeps on the earth - so that they can swarm on the earth, be fruitful and multiply on the earth." 18 So Noach went out with his sons, his wife and his sons' wives; 19 every animal, every creeping thing and every bird, whatever moves on the earth, according to their families, went out of the ark.